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Ms Claire Ward (Watford): May I join my right hon. Friend in expressing dismay at the activities of a minority of so-called fans over the weekend that has brought shame on this nation, and has overshadowed our success on the field. Does he agree that this growing culture of thuggery by a minority of people who attend matches--often without tickets--intent on vandalism and acts of racism starts with the chanting of racist slogans at many matches and in pubs and clubs? I noticed that at the weekend when watching the match in a pub in my constituency. If matters are left unchecked, the situation develops into the violence and completely out-of-hand behaviour that we saw from some people at the weekend. What encouragement will my right hon. Friend give players, clubs, the Football Association and all decent-minded fans to ensure that any form of racism, xenophobia and brutality that starts in the stands is not allowed to go unchecked, for the great majority of good football fans?
Mr. Straw: I entirely share my hon. Friend's abhorrence of such racism and xenophobia. It is the most perverted form of patriotism that any of us has witnessed.
My hon. Friend asked about encouragement. As she will be aware, a major campaign--"kick racism out of football"--is under way in football. I am pleased to be associated with that. Much work is being done by many clubs to ensure that they clamp down on such racism and on the xenophobia exhibited by their supporters and those who attend their grounds. In addition, she will be aware that, under the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, we took powers greatly to increase the strength of racially aggravated offences and to raise the penalties for them.
Sir Norman Fowler (Sutton Coldfield): The Home Secretary disclaims all responsibility, but he knows that, on 22 June 1998, as shadow Home Secretary, I proposed a new clause to the Crime and Disorder Bill that would have given the police extra powers to go to the courts to prevent football hooligans from travelling overseas, even if they had not been convicted of an offence. At the same time, we promised the Government every co-operation on such measures. Those are the facts.
That was two years ago, however. Surely, the failure of the Government is that, during the intervening period, they have done nothing about that; they have not introduced a Government measure. Everyone in the House understands that it must be Government legislation--not a private Member's Bill.
Furthermore, the right hon. Gentleman's comments on intelligence beg the question of whether sufficient resources are being given to the police, who are generally starved of resources--[Hon. Members: "Oh, come on."] There is no controversy about that. Do the police have enough good intelligence on which everyone can act?
Mr. Straw: The right hon. Gentleman was indeed shadow Home Secretary in 1998. If he reads the record,
he will be aware that, although he made those proposals, they were not in a form that could be accepted. I do not criticise him for that; he knows that was the situation. He also knows that it is by no means always the case that the only vehicle for Government-supported legislation is a Government Bill. That happened under his Government as well as under the Labour Government. Such hand-out Bills are often offered to Members for introduction as private Members' Bills and we are glad to have the co-operation of Members on both sides of the House in that matter. The right hon. Gentleman wants to make those unimpressive party points, but he was a long- standing member of the previous Government who were in power for 18 years and there are big questions about what they did to strengthen the law on such matters.I shall deal with two further points. The first is on those people with football-related convictions. As I have said to the House on several occasions, we should have preferred the powers that we proposed to have been included in the Bill promoted by the hon. Member for West Chelmsford. However, we sought to achieve the same end by a different route. I repeat the point--Opposition Members really do have to understand it, because it is important in comprehending what has been going on in Charleroi and Brussels--that not only were the overwhelming majority of those arrested and detained in Brussels and Charleroi at the weekend people against whom there was no banning order, but they had no football-related conviction at all. Indeed, in most cases the police held no information about them.
As for the right hon. Gentleman's point about resources, if he wants to bat across the Chamber what happened under the 1992-97 Government when there was a real-terms cut in the resources available to the police, I am happy to do that, too. I should also tell him that at no stage has NCIS or the Association of Chief Police Officers raised with me questions about the lack of resources.
Mr. David Crausby (Bolton, North-East): I am sure that my right hon. Friend will accept that the people involved in the violence are not, in any sense, genuine football fans, in that they have no real interest in the welfare of the game. Does he also agree that those who are most at threat as a result of such hooliganism are genuine football fans? Those who watch the game on television will not be assaulted and attacked in the street; it will be the genuine travelling fans themselves. Will he encourage those fans to play a full part in ensuring that the minority of hooligans who cause such chaos are arrested, sentenced and barred for ever from the game?
Mr. Straw: I share my hon. Friend's sentiments entirely. In 1988, I and my then seven-year-old son were caught up in the most terrible violence that took place between England and Scotland supporters on the way to the home international at Wembley. I therefore fully understand that genuine fans--and often their families--are most at threat directly from such violence. They also pay the penalty when sanctions are taken against English football.
My hon. Friend asked what genuine fans can do. The most important and immediate action that they can take is to provide information to the telephone hotline that NCIS operates. Its number is 0800 515 495.
Sir Brian Mawhinney (North-West Cambridgeshire): Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Home Office
Minister in the other place yesterday told the media that the Government had done everything that they could--including everything that they could have done legislatively--before the outbreak of violence at the weekend? Will the Home Secretary assure at least me that his colleague was not speaking for him, not least because of the information that the Home Secretary provided in his statement? Hitherto, I have held the Home Secretary in high regard in this respect.
Mr. Straw: I am grateful for the compliment. The Government have done, I think, a huge amount and virtually everything that we could do. I have already set out the measures that we have taken and I repeat, in case the right hon. Gentleman had not taken the point, that information on those against whom there are no banning orders but against whom there are convictions for football-related offences has been provided to the Belgian authorities. I personally discussed the matter in advance of the game with the Belgian and Dutch Interior Ministers and asked that they use that information to exclude such individuals from their countries. They have done that. We have achieved the same end by a different route.
Again, I repeat the point that--this is the huge difficulty that everyone has had in anticipating the trouble--overwhelmingly, those who have been caught up in the trouble are people against whom there was no previous evidence either of a banning order or of their involvement in football-related violence.
Mr. Nigel Beard (Bexleyheath and Crayford): While I entirely condemn the thuggery and violence that we saw at the weekend, is it not unjust that the English football team and football authorities should be threatened because of public disorder for which they have no responsibility and over which they have no influence?
Mr. Straw: We must, I am afraid, accept the realities. When such disorder takes place--whether we like it or not--sanctions are sometimes imposed either on an individual club or on a nation participating in an event. We are all doing our very best to get across to UEFA the extent of the arrangements that we have put in place; I have spelt them out to the House. Those arrangements have worked effectively to deal with the hooligans who have been convicted and against whom there are banning orders or against whom we have intelligence. However, with the best will in the world, it is extremely difficult to work out what other measures could have been taken that could have identified in advance those without football-related convictions and on whom there was no intelligence to suggest that, when they got to Belgium, they were going to get very drunk and involved in mindless violence.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We must now move on. I understand that the House will return to this subject tomorrow.
House of Lords Reform
[Relevant document: The Report of the Royal Commission on the Future of the House of Lords entitled "A House for the Future" (Cm 4534).]
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[Mr. Sutcliffe.]
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