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Mr. Prentice: My hon. Friend reminds me of the situation in Hong Kong, with the functional constituencies, where people represent circus performers. Is he seriously recommending that?
Mr. Pike: My hon. Friend, who represents a neighbouring constituency, takes this issue a bit too far. He is opposed to appointments being made. I am simply saying that if we want a truly representative Chamber, we should consider other methods of election.
We have the opportunity to ensure that the second Chamber is representative of the country in the 21st century and that it can play a vital role in our parliamentary democracy. We need to debate these issues. I believe that the Joint Committee should be established to consider the various options. I disagreed with the idea of a referendum, proposed by the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, but I believe that our manifesto for the next election should contain our proposals for what to do in this respect. In that way, people will know what the future of the second Chamber will be. Then they will be able to choose, and modernisation will mean that this House and the second Chamber will both be able to scrutinise legislation. That will ensure that we do not fall into some of the legislative traps that we have fallen into in recent years.
6.58 pm
Mr. Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe): I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members will have noticed that in recent months there has been a rising level of disillusion with this Government and their principles and purpose. More importantly, there has also been a rising level of disillusion and cynicism about politics among quite a wide section of the population. That is serious, because it damages our democracy. I think that one of the things from which it stems is a lack of the faith that there used to be in the institutions of our constitution, including this Parliament, which no longer plays the effective role that it used to play in holding the Executive to account.
We see this attitude exemplified most often in the low and ever-decreasing turnout in elections. It is no good thinking that the use of electronics or longer voting times will address the problem of the positive refusal of growing numbers of the public to take part in many of our political activities.
I believe that few things are more calculated to make the public cynical and disillusioned about politics than the way the second Chamber of Parliament has been treated so far in the so-called reforms that have been carried out. The House of Lords--the other place--has been reduced to a quite ridiculous situation. It is hard to explain it to people from overseas with an interest in politics while keeping a straight face.
The present composition of the House of Lords, after the earlier action of the Government, has produced an extraordinary institution of 92 hereditary peers elected by hereditary electors on a most peculiar basis to provide a large constituent element of the upper House. The rest is dominated by a huge number of recent appointments made primarily by the Prime Minister but also by the leaders of
other political parties. It must be said that some of these people are of great distinction and merit, but the reputation of all the nominees is of a somewhat uneven quality. As a result, we have a second Chamber that is an extraordinary creation for the beginning of the 21st century.It is my belief, as it was a year ago--it has been confirmed by the delay that is taking place while we have another debate after the Wakeham report--that the Government began by intending to do nothing further than what they have already done, in getting rid of hereditary peers. We have reached the stage where the Government are not sure whether they like what has happened, so they do not know what to do next.
The Leader of the House told us that she had not come to the Chamber to announce the Government's settled conclusions on this problem. I do not believe that the Government are anywhere near any conclusions. I think that large parts of the Government do not want to do anything further. Fortunately, they have fallen into a trap which I think will make that position difficult to sustain. Our reformed second Chamber regards itself as more legitimate and powerful than it used to be. It is no longer possible for Ministers to do what I did and start making scornful remarks about the non-elected second Chamber when it disagrees with a ministerial decision.
The Government created a second Chamber that is now happily enjoying quite regularly defeating them. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young) that so far it has chosen some pretty good issues on which to defeat them. We have a situation where it can be argued that because of the large majority in this place, the more powerful and effective Chamber is the second Chamber--but it has an extraordinary composition. For that reason, Lord Wakeham and his colleagues have sought to advise us on powers and composition.
I do not want to disparage the work of my noble Friend, who is an old personal friend, as are quite a few members of the commission. I acknowledge that the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) and other members of the commission have put in a great deal of hard work to try to guide the public on the subject. I particularly do not agree, however, with their conclusions on the constitution of the second Chamber. I find myself largely in agreement with the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Mr. Maclennan). There will be others on both sides of the House of all political parties who do not agree with the Wakeham commission's conclusion.
It seems inescapable that the powerful Wakeham commission set out, on the steer of the Government, to try to head everybody off from the plain and obvious solution to what should be the composition of an upper House in a parliamentary democracy such as the United Kingdom. It is obvious that a directly elected upper House is the only one that will have full political legitimacy and the necessary clout properly to hold the modern Executive to account.
Before I engage in the arguments that the Wakeham commission ingeniously advanced to head off the plain and obvious solution, I must say that I happen to think that it will not head off the British electorate eventually. I am fairly confident that the average British citizen will accept nothing less than elected representatives in the upper House of our Parliament holding the Executive to account.
I am usually fairly scornful--sometimes quite disparaging--of the slavish use that is now made of focus groups or opinion polls, but on this occasion I happily suspect that my views are entirely in line with those of a large majority of the public, if it was put to them as an option that we should have an elected upper House.
We must turn to the subtle and diplomatic reasons that the Wakeham commission tries to advance to head us off from a plain and obvious conclusion. The first reason is plainly described as the "central objection" to direct election. It is claimed, at paragraph 11.6, that it will
- represent a challenge to the pre-eminence of the House of Commons.
The 21st century form of Executive is huge and all-embracing compared with older forms of government in this country. Two Houses of Parliament can therefore complement each other in holding it to account. Of course, it is necessary to work out which House is pre-eminent. I shall not repeat arguments that have already been made, but we have already established that position. I am content that we should have legislation to reinforce it. We have the Parliament Acts, and it is important that the second Chamber should have no power over money Bills. It is clear that the Salisbury convention should be reinforced by whatever legislation determines the second Chamber in future.
The only argument against that, as advanced by the Wakeham commission when it confronts the argument that legislation can surely establish the pre-eminence of the lower Chamber in dealing with taxation, public expenditure and Second Readings, is the one set out in paragraph 11.7. It states that
- members of such a chamber--
- would not regard the limits as justified.
There are countless examples throughout the world--most notably in the United States but also in many other modern democracies--where there are two elected Chambers, once there is a bicameral system. That does not give rise to deadlock. If the arguments of the Wakeham commission were put to a politician or legislator in the United States, they would be regarded as ridiculous.
Mrs. Dunwoody: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
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