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Mr. Hope: There is obviously a deep interest in the matter. I am glad that I have sparked an interest in the important issue of having a Chamber that is representative of the country as a whole. The report discusses gender and ethnic minority representation, but does not address age representation sufficiently. There are various ways of achieving that and, as I have said, I am sympathetic to some of the Opposition's suggestions. However, the report missed the opportunity to provide targets to get more young people into a second Chamber so that they are fully represented.
I am aware of the constraints of time, and shall move on to the question of direct elections and whether we should have a fully elected second Chamber. That would be a major mistake, as such a Chamber would carry within it the seeds of its own destruction. Elections to it would be unlikely to attract a significant interest among voters. If they did, there would be the difficulty of the second
Chamber rivalling the democratic legitimacy of the Commons--the Chamber in which we sit. As has been said, direct elections would be fought on party political lines and, inevitably, a wholly elected second Chamber would duplicate this Chamber. What would be the point of that, as such a Chamber would not fulfil its role of being representative? On the other hand, it could challenge the Commons if it had an Opposition majority which, as was said earlier, would happen if elections to it took place between general elections. Of course, a wholly directly elected second Chamber would not achieve the pluralism that is so important.What are the options? The commission recommends that the second Chamber should have an elected element. I have reservations about that, but I understand the commission's argument. Indeed, I partly accept its view because the options that it recommends include two other key issues: representation of the regions and democratic authority--to pick up earlier points about a wholly appointed Chamber.
I note that of the three recommendations, option B talks about having two different types of proportional representation: one with partially open lists, and one with closed lists--at the same time as elections to the European Parliament. Rather than getting into an arcane debate about the open versus the closed list system, I simply point out that in my view it would be at best confusing and at worst unworkable to have two different methods in use in the same election.
At present, if the second Chamber has to have an elected element, I would favour one based on model A, which the report calls complementary voting, with Members returned from regional lists in proportion to the party share of the vote at a general election. That would achieve regional representation in the second Chamber, but it would prevent all the problems of Members being elected on a different manifesto and claiming a different mandate at a different time from the party of the day.
Given the years of Conservative domination of the Lords, it is tempting to press for a revised second Chamber which allows, shall I say, left-of-centre political forces to dominate in the 21st century in the way that the forces of conservatism did in the 20th century. However, that would be a mistake. The second Chamber should be, at heart, a revising Chamber, and not an alternative Government or a poodle of the Government of the day. Crucially, if we are to avoid, in a new second Chamber, the one-party domination that the Conservatives have in the existing second Chamber, we require a system of appointment and indirect election that will create political balance and make it impossible for any one party to secure an overall majority.
I welcome today's debate. I have emphasised the need to get more young people into a second Chamber. The commission's report was unanimous; it has huge authority, and I hope that all hon. Members will accept it as both the basis for discussion and a reason to accelerate the process of reforming the second Chamber so that we can make it truly modern and relevant to the 21st century.
7.52 pm
Mr. Patrick Nicholls (Teignbridge): The fact that I can say to the hon. Member for Corby (Mr. Hope) that I agreed passionately with some of what he said and
disagreed passionately with other things that he said at least saves him from some of the embarrassment that he might feel if I was completely on his side.That point also confirms that the Leader of the House, who said at the beginning of the debate that she was hoping to find consensus, will find no consensus at all. She will not find consensus among Government Members, and she will not find it among Opposition Members; it simply does not exist. I point out to anyone who feels sorry for the right hon. Lady, who set out in a "little goody two shoes" way to find that elusive consensus, that we have no sympathy for her whatsoever because the most radical thing that she did--abolishing the hereditary peers--was done not through consensus, but out of sheer spite. It was not done to improve the standing of the second Chamber or the processes of government.
When one hears the language that has been used tonight, such as the talk about privilege and the fact that some or all of the hereditary peers went to Eton, given as an argument for doing something to the legislature, one knows that whatever else is on the agenda, improving the constitution is not.
I turn to the first point on which I agreed with the hon. Member for Corby, and in a voice vibrant with insincerity, I shall take it on the chin and say that I am embarrassed about it. He was right to say that a case has never been made for the hereditary peerage system of constituting the upper House. There is therefore an obligation, perhaps on Opposition Members, to make that case, and I am about to make it, if only for reasons of nostalgia.
Mr. Hope: During the debate on the abolition of the hereditary peers' right to vote, I asked every Conservative Member whether they supported hereditary peerages, and not a single one said yes.
Mr. Nicholls: I am so sought after as a speaker, as my friends and colleagues will know, that I cannot attend every debate. However, if the hon. Gentleman thinks that I am trying to be provocative, I point out that I have made at least one speech in the debates about the reform of the House of Lords, and I promise him that I have made this point before.
It is argued that we must get rid of the House of Lords because it is not democratic. I have even heard members of my own party say that, and they have probably said it in the House tonight. That argument demonstrates a complete misunderstanding about the nature of Parliament; it does not consist only of the House of Commons. In our system, sovereignty lies with the Queen in Parliament, and the three estates of Parliament are the Queen, the House of Lords and the House of Commons.
It is true that the House of Lords was not democratic, any more than the monarch is democratic. It is the overall system of government that must be democratic. At the moment, our system is that at least every five years, adult voters can combine, and if they do not like the judgments and decisions made by those who are charged to make them, they can throw them out, as they did comprehensively in 1997.
In a minor digression, I point out that if we ever go into the federal Europe envisaged by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke),
the electorate will no longer have the ability to throw out the people who make decisions on their behalf. However, we are not there yet.Simply to say that the hereditary peerage was not, in itself, democratic is neither here nor there. One can assess the democracy of Parliament only by looking at it in totality. What, then, is the argument for the hereditary peerage? It is simply that it worked. That system evolved through countless centuries and had a certain legitimacy and acceptance. Those who say that its social composition was wholly exclusive ought to read up on the subject properly and consider the composition of today's hereditary peerage.
Mr. Malcolm Savidge (Aberdeen, North) indicated dissent.
Mr. Nicholls: It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to make an eloquent contribution to our deliberations by shaking his head, but if one reads "Dod's" and examines the length of hereditary peerages, one discovers the interesting fact that the average hereditary peerage dies out within seven generations. Traditionally, it was then replaced. That ended when the late Lord Wilson stopped giving out hereditary peerages, and that policy was followed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath).
When one looks at the social profile--if that is what one wants to call it--of the hereditary peers, one sees that although they may bear grand names, many of them have had occupations that, while noble in an ordinary sense, are not spectacular. I can think of people who used to bear famous noble names who include a retired corporation gardener, a retired police sergeant, someone who owns a small grocer's shop and a retired care worker.
The point of that system is that there was a mechanism sanctioned by time, not by logic, for producing a wholly representative bunch of people who were completely incapable of having a party--[Laughter.] That shows exactly where Labour Members are coming from. Most people, when they hear an argument that they do not understand, try to think of a logical rejoinder to it, but some of the temporary Members on the Government Benches are obviously incapable of that.
The hereditary peerage, as it stood before it was abolished, contained a social range that was a great deal wider than many people realise, and it was a wholly arbitrary mechanism for producing a body of people who, ultimately, simply could not be whipped or pressurised. In a nutshell, that is the case for it; it is not that if one started out, with a blank piece of paper, to design a country, one would come up with the hereditary peerage. The point of it is the function that it was designed to discharge. I shall come to that function in a moment.
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