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8.36 pm
Angela Smith (Basildon): I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I have spent many hours discussing the issue and listening to the debate, along with the few other hon. Members present in the Chamber. It saddens me that so many hon. Members were present when we discussed stage 1 and the removal of the right of hereditary peers to vote, but so few of those who were keen to take part in that debate are in the Chamber tonight to discuss what comes next, which is perhaps more important. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr. Paterson) points to the Labour Benches. I make no party political point; I merely suggest that as many hon. Members should be present for this debate as attended the previous debate.
Some hon. Members are critical of the fact that we have reached this stage at all. That was evident from the comments of the hon. Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls), who explained why he believed that the hereditary peerage should stay. There is also the argument that we should have all or nothing--we should have stage 1 and stage 2 now, or nothing. That view has prevailed so many times in the past, but produced no reform. By waiting to achieve everything, we lapse into inertia and do nothing.
Today, I came across a copy of the Daily Mirror from June 1927, with the headline
- MPs battle over Lords Reform.
Mr. Tyrie: Although there was no consensus in the Conservative party, the vast majority of the party, and certainly the leadership by that time, had moved to the view that some form of elected solution would be required for the second Chamber. Furthermore, by that time the Labour party was firmly committed to the abolition of the House of Lords--a position that it has held intermittently ever since.
Angela Smith: How times change. Here we are, in 2000, still debating the issue of hereditary peers. It is right that we move forward and abolish the right of hereditary peers to vote, and then move on to the next stage.
I have never said that I considered it an important political point to remove that right; I think it right in principle. My intention is not to undermine or fail to recognise the contribution that peers have made. I believe that it is wrong in principle for people to have the right to vote in our legislature on laws that govern the country, purely on the basis of what their ancestors had done or the position that their ancestors held. However, hereditary peers still sit in the House of Lords. The legitimacy of the House of Lords has not increased.
Mr. Gerald Howarth: Given the powers that the hon. Lady ascribes to hereditary peers and accidents of birth, how did Baroness Jay manage to secure such enormous influence over the affairs of our country?
Angela Smith: Baroness Jay was appointed to her position on her merits, not on those of the people who came before her. Unless we move forward now, the legitimacy of the second Chamber will be compromised.
We have reached the halfway stage and we are looking forward to the next step. By and large, I welcome the Wakeham report, although I have criticisms of it. It constitutes an important way in which to move forward and inform Parliament. Several hon. Members do not support the concept of a second Chamber or the need for a bicameral system. On balance, I do not share that view. However, I hope that their lordships do not consider the view of this House to be static, and do not believe that they can do anything they wish and continue to be supported as an institution by the House of Commons. The role of the House of Lords is vital in our perception of the system as a whole.
We are not considering the way in which the House of Lords operates with this Government, but the way in which a second Chamber will operate with any Government. The consequences of our deliberations tonight could last for as many centuries as the previous set-up. We must therefore legislate with great care because the impact will be felt for many years.
The House of Lords should not be bent on unconditional support for or confrontation with any Government. Conservative Governments have reeled off long lists of defeats of this Government by the House of Lords. That is irrelevant. If we want to play such games we can visit the Library, where we will find that 80 per cent. of defeats by the House of Lords were under Labour Governments, whereas 10 per cent. or fewer occurred under Conservative Governments. The House of Lords has therefore been partisan. However, that is not relevant to the way in which we proceed.
We want a House of Lords that will consider issues on their merits. That does not mean that it should be non-political or non-partisan. The commission's report deals with that. It is strange that Members of the House of Commons are so frightened of having politicians in the House of Lords. Perhaps they are frightened that politicians will know the tricks of the trade.
A House of Lords that operates under the criteria that the Wakeham report outlines will have more confidence and legitimacy than it has at present. I worry about the future of the second Chamber, and I lean towards the views of my colleagues who argue for no second Chamber when I read that individual Members of the House of Lords have stated that they will try to wreck one
Commons Bill not because of its merits or otherwise, but because of a Government policy that they do not like. Lord Kimball was reported as having met Conservative peers to draw up tactics to wreck the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill in revenge for the Home Secretary's announcement of a free vote on hunting in the House of Commons.If Members of another place want to tackle each issue on its merits and vote for or against it, that is a matter for them. However, to argue that they will wreck legislation in revenge for an unrelated action by the House of Commons brings the second Chamber into disrepute and makes some of us wonder whether we should have a second Chamber. Liberal Democrats are often criticised, perhaps unfairly, for pavement politics. Such language from the House of Lords smacks of the kid who takes his ball away, and is more akin to playground than pavement politics. Lord Wakeham is trying to distance the legislature from that. Such behaviour tests the patience of us all.
If we are to have a truly democratic system of government, we must impress on the second Chamber that its role must be clearly defined. As I said earlier, their lordships should not regard support for a second Chamber as unchallengeable. The politics of the playground simply strengthen the argument of those who would remove any second Chamber.
I do not believe that we should do away with the second Chamber because of differences about the way in which it should be constituted. Some hon. Members have suggested that the difficulties and pressures on deciding our next actions mean that we should do nothing. I do not accept that. The time is right to act, but there are difficulties.
Lord Wakeham and his team tried to marry the old with the new. That creates difficulties. In some ways, it would have been easier to abolish the House of Lords and establish a new Senate. However, this House believed strongly that while we wanted to change some traditions of the House of Lords, we did not want to throw the baby out with the bath water. This House emphasised the importance of tradition. The difficulties in the report arise from trying to marry such difficult concepts.
The House of Commons has faced more gradual modernisation through general elections. We undergo a process of evolution not revolution. Considerable attention, not always wanted, has been focused on the fact that there are more women in this Parliament than ever before. Perhaps more importantly, hon. Members' backgrounds have changed dramatically in the past 100 years. My hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice) commented on that earlier. Paying Members of Parliament a salary has opened the way for those who would have been denied a seat in the House of Commons because they had no private means. The change in the franchise made a difference to people's eligibility to stand for election to the House of Commons and who could vote for them. Those changes, together with changes in the education system, have given people from different backgrounds the confidence to stand for election to local authorities and the House. Change has been gradual, and I am sure that it will continue.
We are now trying to bring the House of Lords up to speed. That can be done only through legislation. The starting point for any deliberations is the role of the
second Chamber. I have already endorsed many of the recommendations in the report. I was interested to note that the commission accepted the principles of the Salisbury convention and believed that they should continue. I endorse that, but I am not convinced that we should proceed by convention in a second Chamber of the future. I accept the principles of the Salisbury convention, and perhaps they should be enshrined in working mechanisms. If they are wrong, they should not be retained. Sometimes, the withdrawal of the Salisbury convention has been used as a threat. That is inappropriate.The report clearly identifies the way in which a second Chamber should operate. We must also consider who should be members of the second Chamber. I am comfortable with a mixture of regionally elected Members and appointed Members from the appointments commission. I accept the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) and the hon. Member for Stratford- on-Avon (Mr. Maples) about the problems of a fully elected second Chamber. We must not appoint Members of a second Chamber as an honour; they must fill working positions. I do not accept that we diminish the legitimacy of the second Chamber by having a mixture of people who are appointed and people who are elected. I am not considering the legitimacy of individual Members, but that which the process gives to the Chamber.
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