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Fiona Mactaggart: I am afraid that services are currently planned on the basis of what people think others believe, rather than on the basis of what people know about others' beliefs. I think that a census giving real evidence of such knowledge could ensure that services meet the differing needs of people who have different beliefs.
Another factor would affect another group in my constituency, in a slightly different way. I refer to the police training budget. Members of the Sikh religion who observe the five Ks carry knives with them. I have encountered cases in which young police officers, new to Slough, have arrested young men who have been carrying knives as part of their religious belief. That does not happen in the case of more experienced police officers, because they recognise that in the circumstances of the faith the person carrying the weapon is not, in fact, carrying a weapon, but is carrying a religious artefact.
Mr. Hogg: That is a problem of bad training. If the hon. Lady consults the legislation that makes it an offence to carry a sharp-bladed instrument, she will find that there is a specific exemption in respect of those who carry such instruments as part of their faith.
Fiona Mactaggart: The right hon. and learned Gentleman will find that that is not a high priority in police officers' training in his constituency, whereas it must be a high priority in Slough police officers' training. My point is that police training authorities should be able to target their training appropriately, where it is most needed.
We need information that can ensure that services of all kinds are better shaped to meet the needs of the diverse communities that form our whole community. No one is suggesting that particular faiths should receive state subventions. We are trying to ensure that state services developed in a Christian tradition, which match the habits of the Christian faith, begin to match more fairly and accurately the beliefs and habits of other faiths. If we do
that, we can ensure that members of minority faiths feel truly a part of our whole community, feel that their faiths and beliefs are respected, and feel that they can truly participate. If we fail to do that, we shall fail to meet their needs.11.28 pm
Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester): I think that all censuses constitute an intrusion into our private lives, and that all censuses require considerable justification. A summary of a recent ruling by the European Court of Human Rights agrees. It states:
- The compulsory requirement to provide information to a census (including sex, marital status, place of birth)
- was found to be an interference with private and family life.
I have not yet heard a convincing argument--certainly not from the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart)--for what we shall gain from the addition of religion; nor do I fully understand where the pressure has come from. I have a hint of a suspicion that some religious groups may hope that, for example, they can obtain the resources mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), or can gain access to schools devoted exclusively to their faith, such as Church of England and Roman Catholic schools do now. However, I am only guessing. I still have not heard clearly what the real reason for adding the question is.
Mr. Maclean: Perhaps I can help my hon. Friend. The Muslim Council of Britain strongly supports the question on the ground that there is a social time bomb ticking away unless something is done now for the more equitable allocation of public services and better planning on matters such as community relations, health care, education, employment and housing. It certainly believes that the question will allow the Government to direct money and funding to it.
Mr. Tyrie: My hon. Friend has firmed up my suspicion.
Mr. Gray: My hon. Friend raised the question of whether the census might be used to allocate funds to schools, but surely the only schools that are divided according to religion are Protestant and Roman Catholic schools in England and in Scotland. That is the only question that the census specifically fails to ask. It does not count the number of Roman Catholics compared with the number of Protestants; it counts merely the number of Christians. There is no provision at the moment for schools of other faiths.
Mr. Tyrie: On the face of it, that may also be a good point, but I would need to think a little more carefully before being absolutely sure.
Mr. Tyrie: If I may, I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Sayeed) in a moment. I should like to give way first to my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne).
Mr. Swayne: The objective may be to identify social exclusion so as to be able to target resources better, but I
do not believe that the information that is being asked for will provide the quality of information to be able to deliver that objective. Surely, the most disadvantaged group in the Muslim community is the Bahais. Therefore, one would wish to know where they were located and how many of them there were. The proposal will not deliver that.
Mr. Tyrie: That is a powerful and persuasive point and further points us in the direction of saying that the information will not be valuable.
Mr. Sayeed: I entirely refute the suggestion that the Bill has been promoted on behalf solely of the Muslim community. It is true that the Muslims have supported it, but so have the Board of Deputies of British Jews, the Church of England, the Catholic Church, the Hindus and the Sikhs.
Mr. Tyrie: I believe that the Jewish community is divided on the matter. Indeed, I was approached by a member of that community about the Bill, who first alerted me to take an interest in it. It would be wrong to suggest that there is uniform and full support from all sections of those faiths.
Furthermore, if I were a Jew, having seen what has happened in the past century, I would be deeply concerned at the idea that there should be an identification of Jews in that way in a census.
Mr. Tyrie: I shall give way in a moment.
In a free society such as we live in at the moment, everyone, including all Jews, can rest assured that they will not find themselves disadvantaged in any way by providing such information, but, historically, some ethnic and religious groups, particularly the Jewish community, have suffered greatly from being so identified. I can well imagine that that served as one of the reasons why many people in the Jewish community are concerned about the matter.
Mr. Hogg: May I raise the following point with my hon. Friend? If indeed the question is designed primarily to channel resources to particular groups, does he understand that many of us who represent the rural areas will suspect that the resources will be channelled to the inner cities and away from the rural areas? That is a matter that concerns all of those who represent the countryside.
Mr. Tyrie: That is another interesting point, which may well be right. Again, I would want to think about it more carefully before being absolutely sure.
Mr. Tyrie: I will give way one more time. If the House will forgive me, I give way to the Liberal Democrat spokesman.
Mr. Edward Davey: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, in July 1999, the Board of Deputies of British Jews voted overwhelmingly for the inclusion of the question in the census?
Mr. Tyrie: I was aware of that, but I stand by the points that I made. It is not true that the whole of the Jewish community overwhelmingly supports the proposal. Many in that community do not.
Mr. Ivor Caplin (Hove): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Tyrie: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I have given way, I think, six or seven times. There are not
many things that I want to say. It seems that almost everyone else is getting their speeches into mine. However, I shall do my best to make the few further points that I wanted to make.I think that many of the points that we have just heard made in interventions have slowly dawned on those who originally supported the Bill. I think that that is why the Bill has been curiously amended to include subsection (2), which suggests that people will not pay a penalty if they do not comply with subsection (1). I can only assume that the change has been made because those who support the Bill have realised that, as I believe, the Bill goes a step too far in demanding in a census information on religious belief.
There has been some discussion--I should like to clarify the point once and for all--about whether this is a compulsory measure. Some hon. Members have said that it is a voluntary measure.
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