House of Commons
Wednesday 21 June 2000
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
City of London (Ward Elections) Bill (By Order)
Order for further consideration, as amended, read.
To be further considered on Wednesday 28 June.
Oral Answers to Questions
NORTHERN IRELAND
The Secretary of State was asked--
Punishment Beatings
1. Mr. Michael Connarty (Falkirk, East): If he will make a statement on the incidence of punishment beatings in Northern Ireland. [125476]
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Mandelson): From 1 January to 11 June this year there were 111 paramilitary-style attacks, comprising 54 shootings, with 33 by loyalists and 21 by republicans; and 57 assaults, with 33 by loyalists and 24 by republicans. The Government condemn without reservation the activities of those on both sides who plan, carry out and attempt to justify these barbaric attacks. We call on all political leaders to use their influence to bring these attacks to an end now.
Mr. Connarty: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is time we stopped calling the attacks punishment beatings and started calling them illegal paramilitary acts, underlining the fact that, now that we have democracy in Northern Ireland, we should also have the rule of law and demilitarisation? In that vein, we should be asking the groups' representatives to stamp out their use of violence. We should make it quite clear to the UFF that it should not threaten citizens with shootings for acts of vandalism as it has done in the past few days.
Mr. Mandelson: I echo my hon. Friend's sentiments. The fact is that politics is now working in Northern Ireland and there is no excuse for anyone to turn away from politics to the violence of the past. My message to those who think that they can go around threatening violence or stirring up trouble--particularly as we enter the marching season--and get away with it is simple: they will not get away with it.
There is no place for violence and I will be watching very carefully indeed to see whether, in the coming weeks and months, there are any paramilitary organisations involved in violence of any kind, be it in Belfast, Drumcree or elsewhere. If there is evidence of such involvement, I will draw the appropriate conclusions about the state of the ceasefires and the implications for any further prisoner releases.
Mr. William Ross (East Londonderry): Since the Secretary of State has been paying careful attention to statistics, he will be well aware that the evidence and the statistics show that the terrorist organisations have been able to switch the level of their terrorist mutilations on and off at will over the past two or three years. Is he further aware that those are simply a means of these people imposing their will on their respective communities and trying to introduce mafia rule throughout Northern Ireland? Intelligence reports show that they are trying to extend their influence beyond the major conurbations and into the towns and villages of Northern Ireland. What intelligence reports, rather than evidence, does he have that Mr. McCoy was murdered by the IRA?
Mr. Mandelson: I am not going to comment on a particular case about which I have no evidence. I of course condemn the cold-blooded murder of Edmund McCoy. It is not yet clear who is responsible. The Chief Constable has said that he retains an open mind. The police investigation continues, but if it becomes clear that the Provisional IRA was responsible, that will have a direct impact on my assessment of the state of its ceasefire.
Mr. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire): Does the Secretary of State agree that the full implementation of the Patten proposals through the Police (Northern Ireland) Bill should further undermine what little legitimacy these vigilantes can claim as local peacekeepers and law enforcers, and that the two symptoms of that happening would be, first, the reduction of paramilitary beatings and, secondly, the elimination of paramilitary flags, which are often used to mark out an area of assumed control by paramilitaries on both sides?
Mr. Mandelson: The hon. Gentleman is right to say that we are making a fresh start, a new beginning, in policing in Northern Ireland. That is what the Patten report and the Police (Northern Ireland) Bill, which is in Committee, are all about. If we successfully introduce those reforms, it will make a positive contribution to the new political dispensation that we want in Northern Ireland, in which violence should, must and will play absolutely no part whatever.
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde): I think that we should stop, now, calling these attacks punishment beatings, as my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Connarty) suggested. Of the criminal assaults committed by loyalists, how many can be laid at the doorstep of the Ulster Defence Association? What is my right hon. Friend's reaction to the latest threat by
spokesmen of the UDA to sever the ceasefire? Are we now looking forward to a dissident or Continuity UDA, or is a dissident within the UDA making this threat?
Mr. Mandelson: I do not want to speculate about the genesis of yesterday's statement, except to say that, disturbing as it was, the response to it was very encouraging indeed. It was condemned right across the political spectrum, from loyalism to republicanism, as well as by the mainstream parties. I believe that Northern Ireland political opinion was united in the view that threatening violence is simply unacceptable in today's society. I think that we should draw encouragement, therefore, from the comprehensive condemnation of that statement. They should draw the obvious conclusion that that type of threat will not be tolerated by any part of Northern Ireland's society any more.
Mr. John M. Taylor (Solihull): Does the Secretary of State agree that there is still an utterly unacceptable level of beatings by paramilitaries? Will he say that those beatings in themselves constitute a breach of the ceasefire? Will he confirm that, in as much as the beatings have been carried out by the so-called Ulster Freedom Fighters, that will influence his policy on prisoner release?
Mr. Mandelson: I will certainly confirm that. I keep all the ceasefires under constant review. If I receive any evidence whatsoever that the ceasefires are being breached by any of the paramilitary organisations, it will lead directly, when the time comes in the next few weeks, to my assessment on the further planned prisoner releases which may take place. I assure the hon. Gentleman and the House that I take those actions and threats and any breach of the ceasefires very seriously indeed. I will draw the appropriate conclusions, and I will take the appropriate action.
Mr. Robert McCartney (North Down): Does the Secretary of State appreciate that it is his limited definition of what constitutes a breach of ceasefire--namely, attacks on military or security personnel, economic targets or members of the opposing community--that is feeding and encouraging those beatings, which are not seen by those who perpetrate them as falling within the Secretary of State's definition of a breach of the ceasefire?
Mr. Mandelson: I do not accept that for one moment. I have left all the paramilitary organisations in no doubt whatsoever about how I will interpret the ceasefires and their maintenance, how I will assess whether there is a breach of those ceasefires, and what conclusions I will draw. I have made public statements; I have made private statements. They are in no doubt at all about the consequences that will flow for further prisoner releases if there is any breach of the ceasefires.
Paramilitary Organisations
2. Mr. Michael Fabricant (Lichfield): What estimate he has made of the number of people who have joined Continuity IRA and the Real IRA since 1998. [125477]
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Adam Ingram): Only broad judgments on such matters can be made based on intelligence information. However, whoever those people are, and however many of them there are, the security forces remain vigilant and able to combat their threat. Both of the Governments and the people of Ireland, north and south, are united as never before against those groups and their evil activities.
Mr. Fabricant: I thank the Minister for his answer. What estimate has he made of the number of prisoners who have been released early but have joined either Continuity or Real IRA? Does he believe that any of those early-release prisoners might have been involved in the recent Hillsborough bombing or the bombing at Hammersmith bridge, in London?
Mr. Ingram: Obviously, we never share intelligence information on such matters across the Dispatch Box. I would, therefore, never speculate on those particular estimates. Any released prisoner is subject to licence conditions. To date, only one of the more than 300 prisoners who have been released has been in breach of that licence and has been returned to prison. We have made it very clear that any breach of the licence as provided in law will be viewed very severely and treated appropriately, as we have shown in the past.
Mr. Malcolm Savidge (Aberdeen, North): Given yesterday's statement by the West Belfast UFF and the continuing activities of groups such as Continuity and Real IRA, will the Minister assure the House that paramilitaries in either community who refuse to renounce violence and killing will be pursued vigorously?
Mr. Ingram: I can give that absolute assurance, as I did in my earlier comments. The security forces at all levels remain highly vigilant against the activities of those groups. We need the co-operation, however, of the wider community in bringing them to justice. I again make the plea that anyone who has evidence on the activities of those individuals or on the groups of which they are members should bring that information to the security forces, so that we can bring them to justice.
Mr. William Thompson (West Tyrone): What evidence have the Government that those two organisations--the Continuity IRA and the Real IRA--may be coming together and acting together in operations as one? What representations are being made to the Government of the Republic of Ireland to take drastic action to prevent those two organisations from expanding further?
Mr. Ingram: I think that everyone aware of the level of those groups' activity in Northern Ireland will know that the level of co-operation between the security forces north and south of the border has never been higher as they try to bring those responsible to justice. Every effort will be made in that regard, but we do not hide the fact that the dissident groups pose a very potent threat. The solution does not lie only with the security forces. It is down to everyone, north and south, to condemn those groups unreservedly and, if they have evidence, to help the security forces and the justice system to bring them to justice.
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