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Ms Shipley: I disagree with the hon. Gentleman for the first time during the debate. It cannot be right to talk of sanctions and of withdrawing whatever from vulnerable young people. They have not had the best start in life and they have not had parental or family support. My hon. Friend the Minister wants to put in place a caring system, which will not give up on the young adult because he or
she does not do as we would want. We are saying, "No, we'll keep in there with you. We will keep on and on and we will be there for you." As the hon. Gentleman said, he is probably talking about a very small number of young people. We can afford to support them over and over again. They are vulnerable and they have had a bad start in life.
Mr. Hammond: I hope that the hon. Lady is right and that it will only be a tiny minority, but I look forward to engaging in that debate with her if she is fortunate enough to be a member of the Standing Committee.
We will also want to seek the views of the people who will have to make the system work. There seems to be a parallel with the problems in schools. Everyone understands the desire not to exclude pupils and to try to include them for as long as possible, but doing so has consequences that have to be considered. I am thinking of the practical effect for those who are trying to make the system work.
Mr. Simon Thomas: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Hammond: One last time, and then I must make progress.
Mr. Thomas: Will the hon. Gentleman take it from me that he is missing the trick? The pathway plan, which is agreed with the young person and his or her adviser, who is there to offer support, will introduce greater compulsion than exists at present. The Bill provides for more help, support and direction than is now on offer.
Mr. Hammond: The problem with the hon. Gentleman's analysis is that it is not clear to me--perhaps the Minister will make it clear when she winds up--what the sanction is, and how the system will deal with the child who persistently fails to stick to the agreed course of action in the pathway plan. That is the problem that I am identifying. I see it as a practical problem for the people who will have to make the system work. I hope that we can return to the matter in Committee.
The third aspect that I want to address relates to the engagement of voluntary organisations in the process. Many of the major organisations dealing with children and young people already have nationwide networks. They will often be in a far better position than any local authority can be to maintain contact in a mobile population, wherever individuals happen to be. They also carry less of a stigma than social services for the individuals concerned. The hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Dawson) alluded to the benefits of bringing voluntary organisations into the loop.
I want to make sure that the arrangements set out in the Bill allow local authorities to exploit to the full the potential of those voluntary organisations in discharging their duties under it. In my county, Surrey, working under the quality protects programme, there is already a multi-agency youth support service, including a leaving care team designed to deliver precisely what the Bill requires.
That service is provided by a voluntary organisation, which can reach and communicate with young people far more effectively than the social services department or
other statutory agencies could reasonably expect to achieve directly, and it does not have the stigma of statutory services attached to it. We want to ensure that such arrangements become the norm in delivering the services envisaged under the Bill or, at the very least, that they are properly considered as an option in determining a model of service delivery by an authority.
Mr. Hinchliffe: I look forward to the publication of the Conservative policy documents on children in care, to answer one or two concerns that I have. I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman's point about voluntary organisations, but I am concerned about the message that we send out. It started with Lady Thatcher. The Leader of the Opposition has mentioned the involvement of Church organisations--putting Church organisations in charge of children in care. I link that to the point made by the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox), in the debate on care standards, that every child entering care should have an adoption plan. Whether the child is in care for 10 minutes or three days, he will have an adoption plan. The alternatives posed by the Conservative party seems to be that a child is either adopted or placed with the Christian Brothers--
Mr. Dawson: And sent to Australia.
Mr. Hinchliffe: --and sent to Australia, as my hon. Friend says. I should welcome further explanation. Does the Conservative party intend to produce a document that fits all the parts of its policy together, so that we can fully understand it?
Mr. Hammond: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that before he has to make the difficult decision of how to cast his vote at the next general election, he will have the benefit of the Conservative party's manifesto, which will include our proposals for children's services.
It is slightly disingenuous of the hon. Gentleman to misquote my hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) on the subject of adoption. The hon. Gentleman knows very well what my hon. Friend meant. He was not referring to children in care for very brief periods; he was talking about children in long-term care and the desirability--[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman can quote the words from the Official Report, but he knows as well as I and everyone in the Chamber what my hon. Friend was referring to. He was simply expressing the view that for children in long-term care, the objective should be adoption, wherever possible. I believe that the hon. Gentleman would not disagree with that view.
I shall deal now with local authority finance. I know that the Minister would be disappointed if I did not mention the financial aspects. The Minister told us that money spent in various ways, including benefits, on 16 and 17-year-old care leavers is to be re-branded in a ring-fenced special grant to local authorities. The Government made it clear in the House of Lords that the extension of assistance to over-18s that is provided for in the Bill would require new money, and that no commitment to bring that section of the Bill into force could be given until the outcome of the comprehensive spending review is known.
The cost impact on different local authorities will vary. The rules specifying which authority is responsible, as clarified by the Bill, will presumably lessen the burden on
authorities in London and other magnet areas. We need to know from the Minister whether the funding will be made available on a reimbursement or a per capita basis for each category of child or young person on a local authority's books, as it were.Given the pressure that many local authority social services departments are under, especially in the south-east, it is vital that funding meets the costs and does not provide any perverse incentives. We understand that funding arrangements will not be part of the Bill, but I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us that, perhaps before it is considered in Committee, she will be able to make available draft proposals on the calculation of the sums that are to be paid, even if not on the amounts. Without that information it will be difficult, if not impossible, to receive a full and informed response from local authorities about the practical effect of the Bill.
Ms Shipley: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Hammond: I would like to move on. I have been speaking for quite a long time already.
I shall take up the implications of the devolution settlement. The measure is what I am calling a new hybrid Bill--it involves both reserved and devolved matters. There may be consensus in this place on the Bill, but apparently that is not so in the Scottish Parliament. The sticking point there appears to be the withdrawal of access to benefits for 16 and 17-year-old care leavers. The Scottish National party has recently tabled an amendment to a Government motion that is supportive of legislation similar to the Bill. It ends by calling upon the Executive to delay any moves to introduce such legislation pending the results of its recently commissioned research into the effectiveness of provision.
Reading between the lines, that is an intention to try to slow down the introduction of similar legislation in the Scottish Parliament. It is possible that there may be a less smooth ride in Scotland, where the parliamentary arithmetic is less favourable to the Government.
Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge and Chryston): The hon. Gentleman has raised an extremely important point. Will he distinguish between the position of one political party which is not part of the coalition which is in government, and the position of the Executive in Scotland, which broadly takes the same view as the Government, but agrees that dialogue should continue between this place and the Scottish Parliament?
Mr. Hammond: Surprise, surprise, the coalition Executive takes the same view as the Westminster Government. The objection to which I am referring is an opposition objection in the Scottish Parliament. Whereas the Bill can expect a smooth ride through this place, with support from both sides of the House, it is not clear that similar legislation will enjoy a smooth ride with cross-party consensus in Scotland.
The Government's amendments in the other place--
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