| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Winnick: I accept that entirely.
If the change recommended by the Home Affairs Committee came to pass at some time--obviously, that will not be now--it would send an important signal that the oversight process was totally independent of the Executive. That is not the present position. While I praise the work of the members of the ISC, there is not the feeling that they are totally independent of the Executive, not because they are not independent-minded Members
of Parliament, but because of the manner in which the Committee is set up, which sends the wrong signals. That is no reflection on my colleagues or on the Opposition Members who serve on the Committee, and do so with great distinction.
Mr. Barron: My hon. Friend is effectively appointed to his position on the Select Committee on Home Affairs by the Government Whips office. Is that Committee independent of the Executive?
Mr. Winnick: Of course the way in which we get on to Committees is not independent of the Executive, but once a Committee is in existence and once we are on it, there is no doubt that we are independent of the Executive and report directly to the House. If it is argued that there is not really much difference in practice between the ISC and the sort of Select Committee that I would like to see created, that is all the more reason why further consideration should be given to setting up such a Committee.
Mr. Barron: Given that everyone would agree that if the Committee were a Select Committee of the House it would still have to work within the ring of secrecy, no doubt some of the evidence that it took could never be reported. My hon. Friend's Committee's report was published before our annual report, to which I referred in my speech. The asterisks in our annual report would also have been in any report by such a Select Committee. In view of all that, what is the practical difference, given that my hon. Friend's report took even longer than ours--a delay that we complained about--to be debated in the House?
Mr. Winnick: In the end it is a matter of whether the right signals are sent. The very fact that the ISC remains the subject of controversy because of the way in which it is set up is important. Select Committees are not set up in that way.
I tried time and time again, with others--I believe that my hon. Friend was not in the House at the time, or if he was he did not take part in our debates--to persuade the then Government to give some parliamentary oversight. Time and again I was told that that was not possible. Therefore, I speak with some experience on the matter.
The ISC has done a good job, and I am pleased with what is happening, but it is not likely that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary or my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will change the position in the near future. I have no doubt that at some stage there will be a Select Committee, and when it comes into existence it is extremely unlikely that my hon. Friend, or anyone else, will say that we should revert to the ISC as it stands now.
3.56 pm
Mr. Michael Howard (Folkestone and Hythe): It is always interesting to follow the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick). To adopt a phrase that that hon. Gentleman used, I thought that the hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron) had a point of a kind, and that it was a pity he did not acknowledge that.
I am grateful for the opportunity to make a relatively brief contribution to this important debate. I join with others who have recognised the significance of the
availability to the House of an opportunity to express its views on the workings of the security and intelligence agencies. The work that they do is vital for the well-being of our country, and I begin by paying tribute to the agencies and the way in which they perform their duties.As my right hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) and my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates) said, reports, debates and press coverage inevitably tend to concentrate on those few occasions when things go wrong. There is much less coverage on the many more occasions when things go right, often spectacularly so, and as a result of resourceful, relentless and extremely diligent work that the agencies conduct on our behalf. We are greatly in their debt.
I do not believe that occasional lapses, even serious lapses, from the high standards that the agencies rightly set themselves should be allowed to obscure that important and central fact. In paying that tribute, I am happy to associate myself with the remarks of the Home Secretary and others about Sir Stephen Lander. I add my congratulations to those that have already been expressed, and warmly welcome the Home Secretary's announcement that his term of office is to be extended.
I also pay tribute to the Intelligence and Security Committee, which was set up by the previous Government. The present Chairman, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater, has been its Chairman from its inception. It has won universal respect, and that has a great deal to do with the way in which my right hon. Friend has chaired it. It has worked remarkably well, and I have no doubt that it will continue to do so for a long time to come.
I am also glad to have the opportunity to endorse the Home Secretary's tribute to Lord Nolan and Lord Justice Stuart-Smith for the oversight work for which they were the responsible commissioners. The right hon. Gentleman was right. I agree with everything that he said about the work that they have done.
I should like to say a few words about the Committee's report on Mitrokhin and then make some suggestions for the Committee's future programme. The fact that Mitrokhin confided in the Secret Intelligence Service, came to this country and provided such copious and vital information was, of course, a consequence of his personal bravery and courage, to which tribute has already rightly been paid, but it was also an outstanding coup for the Secret Intelligence Service. It was a remarkable operation, and none of the concerns that have arisen about subsequent events and the way in which certain information was handled should be allowed to cloud in any way the brilliance of that achievement.
As the Committee's report sets out, when I was Home Secretary I was not told about Mrs. Norwood. I think that I should have been told. Although the decision whether she should be prosecuted would have been for the Law Officers, I would have been entitled to be consulted about that decision. In the event, neither the Law Officers nor I were told. Clearly we should have been. I hope that lessons will be learned from that, and I am sure that they will.
I listened with interest to the earlier exchanges between my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe) and the Home Secretary. I would simply say--I am glad that the Home Secretary is in his place to hear me say it--that I think that he was
absolutely right to draw the distinction that he did between the culpability of Ministers and the culpability of their Departments. I would simply add, as gently as I can, that he was not quite as ready to make that distinction when he was in Opposition. I shall say no more about it than that.As for the future work of the Committee, I am delighted that it has set out in the annual report its
- intention to pursue the co-ordination between the Agencies and the law enforcement organisations in fighting serious organised crime, in particularly the Agencies work conducted overseas.
I took particular steps to engage the agencies in proactive work, particularly in relation to the international traffic in drugs. It is well known that many drugs cartels are extremely sophisticated organisations, with resources that dwarf those available to many sovereign states and Governments. Only by the most determined employment of all means available can the countries whose populations suffer grievously from that evil trade hope to make an impact on it.
The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) asked some thoughtful questions about whether we can make a big difference to the trade and why, if we can, we do not devote more resources to the fight. I believe that we can make a significant impact on the trade if we take our efforts seriously and devote the required resources. I hope that the Committee will pursue its inquiries into how action is working out in practice. I note from paragraph 68 of the report that the Committee is not at present confident that all that could be done is being done. I hope that the Committee will pursue that point and that the Government will take the report very seriously.
I hope that the Committee's interest in better co-ordination will not be limited to the work of the agencies in relation to serious organised crime. There is always a danger of duplication and a lack of co-ordination between the various agencies. It is essential that the utmost vigilance is exercised in order to minimise that danger. The Committee could have an important role in helping to achieve that.
Finally, I want to say a word about an aspect of the work of the agencies that seems to me to be of absolutely crucial significance. It is well known, although obviously there are constraints about what can be said in public on the matter, that the close co-operation that has taken place over the years between the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom and those of other English-speaking countries--particularly those of the United States of America--has been of inestimable value to all concerned. Those have probably been among the most fruitful working relationships that have ever occurred between different countries.
Today is not the day for an extensive debate on all the implications of the Government's determination to press ahead with the European defence initiative. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition raised that matter
yesterday, quoting the comments of the French Minister responsible for European affairs, who said last week in connection with defence policy:
- We don't agree with the "Americanisation" of the world . . . we are saying that together we can build a new superpower . . . and its name will be Europe.
The Government have consistently sought to brush off any such concerns, but I believe that real issues exist that merit the closest scrutiny. I hope that the Committee will feel able, within its remit, to pursue those matters to ensure that all the implications of the Government's actions are properly considered.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |