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4.5 pm
Mr. Dale Campbell-Savours (Workington): I shall not pursue the route taken by the right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard), but I remind him of a visit made to America by him, me and others last year, during which the matters that he just raised were discussed. If I recall correctly the conversations that took place, the Americans were not as concerned as he would have us understand them to be. Following the problems that arose during the war in the former Yugoslavia, the American view was that we needed to build a European pillar and to take on greater responsibilities. That is precisely what we are doing. The right hon. and learned Gentleman appeared to dismiss comments made to us on that visit.
Mr. Howard: I do not wish to turn the debate into a private argument of recollection about what was said during our visit to the United States. I am sure, however, that the hon. Gentleman will appreciate the discretion with which concerns expressed during that visit were put forward. Since that visit, more than a year ago, matters have proceeded apace on the development of a European defence initiative outside the framework of NATO. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would agree that it would be perfectly possible--indeed, desirable--for enhanced European co-operation on defence to occur, and for the pillar to which he referred to be set up, within NATO. That, however, is not what is being envisaged.
Mr. Campbell-Savours: I note no detectable difference between the position today and that outlined last year. I do not want to go too far down that route now.
This will probably be my last opportunity to speak on this matter. For reasons of ill health, I shall retire next year, and, if the delay in holding the next debate is similar to that for this one, this will definitely be my last chance. For that reason, I wish to reflect on my experience on the Intelligence and Security Committee. I shall pay some
tributes, but shall also make some slight criticism of the current structure. I concur with much of what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick).The right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King), the Chairman of the ISC, would agree that the Committee is among those best attended by parliamentarians. He may take the view that it would sometimes have been better if had not been so well attended. The Committee holds vigorous debates within its structure, and it is not all plain sailing with everyone agreeing. We vigorously debate issues relating to the services, and there are differences of opinion. We leave the Committee agreed, however, because a common strand unites us--our belief in the task that we have undertaken and in the excellent service provided by the agencies.
Before I speak about the structure, I pay my personal tribute to all the people whom I have met over the years who are involved in front-line activities. Yes, we do meet people in the services--although we do not know who they are, so that we are not compromised. We must pay great tribute to the bravery of many of those people.
We met Mitrokhin. He is a man of considerable courage. I believe that what he did was done for his country. He acted in the belief that people in the former Soviet Union should, at some time in the future, have the opportunity of reading what he said. He set out the truth as he saw it and, one day, will be one of the great figures in the new nation that is being created within the former Soviet Union.
I want to say a little about how the Committee works, because I am often asked "Does this structure work?". Yes, it works. It holds the system to account. There are problems, but the role of the Committee is changing. The process of accountability is constantly increasing and developing. The way that the Committee operates at the end of one year is very different from its operation at the end of the previous year. There are reasons for that.
Within the agencies, there is a recognition of the need for greater accountability. I am sure that our arguments in Parliament were just as vigorously pursued in the agencies when they considered the changes that took place in the early 1990s. The highly charged response of the media to the allegations of Shayler and Tomlinson have also exerted some pressure on the process of accountability.
There is a new generation of young people in the agencies. Perhaps their values are different from those of people who have been members of the agencies for many decades. When we meet such young people, I am very conscious that they are aware of the role of parliamentarians. They see the role of Parliament positively. In many ways, they see a partnership between the heads of the institutions that they represent and the membership of the Committee. The attitude of people in the agencies--especially young people--is extremely healthy and helpful.
The agencies are beginning to realise that it is better to have us on their side. At times, the arguments that they want to have--certainly on finance--are, in essence, political. The arguments are about priorities. The agencies will have noticed that some of the comments that they made to us about the need for additional resources--not generally, but in particular areas--were picked up in the report.
The report--unlike that of many Select Committees--is written in great part by members of the Committee. Often, Committee reports are written by the Committee clerk and subject to amendment by its members. We should be open about that fact. That is the reality for many Select Committees, although that does not detract from my general view as to the need for Select Committee status.
The agencies have learned to trust Members of Parliament. My colleagues and I have signed the Official Secrets Act--but it is more than that. When people in the agencies discuss their business with us, they need to know that our commitment is a little more than mere compliance with the legislation. They need to know that we believe that the ring of secrecy must be in place to safeguard their interests. I hope that, over the years, they have learned that the secrets of the state are just as safe with politicians as with people in the agencies.
There have been difficulties--they know that. If they have felt under pressure during questioning from the Committee, they should realise that we were only exercising our right to hold them to account. That is what the process is about; we are helping them in their task.
Dr. Julian Lewis: I agree with the general thrust of the hon. Gentleman's remarks. Surely, he is not saying that all politicians can be trusted with a blank cheque for access to all the secrets of the agencies. In the Mitrokhin archive itself, two now-deceased politicians--Tom Driberg and Raymond Fletcher--were named as agents of a foreign power. What would have happened if they had accidentally been appointed to an ISC? There must be some protection.
Mr. Campbell-Savours: There is protection. The Whips nominate and the Prime Minister appoints. Therein lies the protection for which the hon. Gentleman calls.
Another reason why change is going on and why the system is so important is that there is an international movement under way in terms of accountability--the right hon. Member for Bridgwater made some allusion to that. Our system is not unique. It exists in various forms in countries throughout the world. In America, it is extremely advanced, and less advanced in some parts of Europe. Without breaching the Official Secrets Act, I shall tell hon. Members of a particular incident that I shall always remember after I have left the House.
In a former eastern European satellite state, I attended a dinner with a committee that mirrored the British ISC. Around the table, monitoring their country's security services, were people who, during the dark years of east European and Russian fascism, had been imprisoned for five, 10 or 15 years. One man, who is now the chairman of his country's committee, spent 12 years in prison. The work that he is doing must have been unimaginable to him then. That is the sea change that is taking place internationally--as such committees are set up to carry out a vitally important task.
Those committees are all going down a single road--the British system. Within 20 years they will all arrive--they will have created a system that mirrors the American one. The American system is the best. We are told that it leaks, but when one talks to people who work in those committees or who monitor them--certainly in Congress and in the Senate--they say that the system is leak-proof.
None the less, people in the congressional and senatorial system have access to almost every secret of the state and are made aware, in advance and in great detail, of operations carried out by their intelligence services. That is unimaginable in the United Kingdom. If we raise such ideas in our Committee, there is great resistance to them in the services themselves. However, I say to people in the services that that system will come here and that it will work. It works in America, so that agenda is inevitable.
The march of history will, I am sure, underwrite precisely what I have said today. The arguments about whether the ISC is a Select Committee will simply be cast aside by history. The process is inevitable; it will happen. My hon. Friend the Minister may resist a little today, but the word "now" in the Government's response was fought over and it indicates the way in which we are going. I say to hon. Members, "Just watch this space." and I say to members of the agencies, "Please do not resist."
Although the ISC reports to the House to account for itself, it is essentially a system of extra-parliamentary accountability, and I do not accept that such a system is fully credible. Yes, it is credible, but not fully credible.
I read with interest the report of the Select Committee on Home Affairs. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) and the other members of the Committee on that excellent report. It addressed all the issues that I have addressed over the years. I also pay tribute to those friends on the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs who support the view that I have expressed today. However, they have not yet decided to produce a report to set out their views, because, as I understand it, they are in a minority at present.
I also pay tribute to the work of the highly important Liaison Committee for its excellent report. It is the most senior Committee of parliamentarians, which comprises all the Chairmen of the Select Committees. It drew up a resolution that states that it believes that the issue of a Select Committee will not go away. Its report says that it will return to it. That agenda will not disappear.
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