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Mr. Howard: Is it not astonishing that Labour Members should demand the name of the source of that remark? It is entirely consistent with named, sourced and published emanations in recent weeks from the highest elements in the French Government.
Mr. Maude: My right hon. and learned Friend is right, and the concern about the matter is real. No one is saying that under no circumstances can these potential conflicts be resolved, but we know that intelligence sharing is founded on continuity, trust and mutual confidence, which can be built up only through a long period of co-operation.
The Government are engaged in a frogmarch towards the European security and defence identity, and the Foreign Secretary must tell the House whether there is any risk that that might endanger intelligence sharing through the Echelon group, which is a crucial element of our intelligence capability. If the intelligence-sharing that we enjoy were lost, we would suffer by denying ourselves access to the product of others' intelligence capabilities.
On the question of trust and confidence, I want to say a word about Dame Stella Rimington and her famous book, which is being considered by Government officials. I
suspect that I am not alone in believing that one of the obligations that members of all agencies accept is a self-denying ordinance on writing about the work of the agencies. That is not some quaint, old-fashioned relic of the dark days of absolute secrecy--I believe it to be crucial for operational effectiveness.As I said earlier, trust is essential at all levels. It is especially essential between agents in the field and the service that they help. The Secret Intelligence Service, in particular, has been extraordinarily successful in creating that sense of complete trustworthiness. After all, it often asks people to place themselves in positions of extreme risk for what they believe in. Such people may be at high risk for many years afterwards. People need to be confident that events will not be written about in such a way that might enable them to be identified subsequently, however well disguised in the writing they may be, by detective work carried out by journalists and others. After all, Mrs. Norwood was publicly identified by a journalist carrying out just such detective work.
Dr. Julian Lewis: Is there not another particularly objectionable aspect to this? What makes the sale of memoirs about MI5 and MI6 so lucrative are the risks run by the agents, who often receive very little financial reward. What does it look like to them to see the desk warriors, who do not run any significant risks, getting £1 million for a book?
Mr. Maude: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. From everything that I have heard, seen and read, it is hard to over-state the distress and outrage that is felt about this by people in all the agencies. I take this opportunity to say to Ministers that we believe that it is quite wrong that Dame Stella should seek to publish such a book. The Government would have our wholehearted support in preventing such publication.
Mr. Winnick: It may well be wrong for Stella Rimington to publish the book. Presumably a lot will be deleted. However, I should like to get this quite clear. Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that the Government should prevent the publication of the book, even if they have the powers to do so? I hope not.
Mr. Maude: Yes, I think that the Government should prevent its publication. It has been argued that it would be perfectly appropriate for Dame Stella to publish memories of her early childhood and a study of the psychological stress involved such an operation. That would be interesting and probably uncontroversial. However, to write about the service that she has led would be quite wrong. She should make the honourable decision not to pursue the book's publication, but if she persists in seeking to write about her life in the service, the Government should prevent the book's publication. They would certainly have our support in doing so, and I hope that they would have the support of the whole House.
I want to say a word about the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Bill, which is in another place. It is mentioned in the report of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater, and it is important in this context, because of a clear conflict of objectives. Perhaps the Government have done their best to reconcile those objectives, but we believe that they have not yet successfully done so.
The emergence and startling growth of new media require some ability for the authorities to have specific access to communications for limited and specific purposes, but two conflicting public goods are at risk here. The first is a general entitlement; we are all entitled to feel that we should have privacy for our communications. The second is a matter of wider importance: the Government's own declared objective, which we strongly support, of making the United Kingdom the prime centre for e-commerce and network development.
I should perhaps declare an interest, as I am a director of a start-up internet company. I am aware of the real concern within the sector about the effect of the perceptions of the Bill. There is massive concern about the effect of the Bill on the sector's development and on the prospects for the UK of becoming a serious base for this kind of business. It is, after all, a very mobile business, able to relocate in other parts of the world literally within hours.
Plenty has been said about the effects. The London Investment Banking Association said recently:
- the legislation also needs to avoid casting doubt on the efficacy of encryption as a means of legitimately protecting the confidentiality of commercial information.
- creating an intimidating environment for the legitimate use of encryption products by UK citizens.
- Such legislation would no longer be compatible with the Government's policy to make Britain the best place for e-commerce and network development.
We understand the countervailing objective for the agencies to have the ability to intercept communications. No one contests that that is a desirable end and that a serious public good is served by it. It was mildly frustrating when looking for details of what the agencies said about it to find in the report of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater, in the section on commercial encryption,
- GCHQ stated in their evidence that
- The Security Service told us that
- The SIS stated
One of the problems is that the UK is the first country to proceed down this path. There is some credit in trying to be first, but we should not always seek to match every development in technology, in the market and in communications with equivalent regulation. Such legislation can look, and can even be, unreasonably draconian. It can prove simply inappropriate in view of the rapid development of such media. Therefore, I take this opportunity to ask the Government to look again at how the legislation will work and to introduce some serious amendments to it.
In conclusion, I should like again to pay tribute to all those in the agencies for the work that they do. The country owes them a big debt of gratitude for their dedication, service, knowledge, resourcefulness and courage. I pay great tribute to my right hon. Friend and his Committee for the way in which they have embraced the important, serious, high task of bringing accountability--of bringing into the light an area that has always remained largely in the dark--and for giving reassurance to the public that these are agencies that serve the cause of liberty and are not its enemies.
6.14 pm
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Robin Cook): The debate has had a select attendance, but in my quarter century as a Member of Parliament, I have rarely attended a debate so well informed and so serious in tackling the issues before the House. I have also rarely attended a debate in which the addressing of serious issues has been so little diverted by party points. All hon. Members who have spoken today may take some pride in having demonstrated the Chamber's role of scrutiny in a responsible and non-partisan manner.
The tone for the debate, and for the annual report before us, owes a great deal to the diligence and character of the right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King). His deep experience of government has admirably equipped him for the role of Chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee. I wish him well on his forthcoming retirement; he will leave a gap that the House will be challenged to fill.
The right hon. Gentleman took proper pride in the high attendance at the ISC. As a regular witness there, I can testify to the unusually high attendance, and, following my recent visit, to its unusual unity, at a level not often found in Select Committees. He was right to point out that the Committee's work is shared by all its members, and many of those who have spoken today may take pleasure in their contribution to it.
I may be able to help the right hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) on their point about regulations for special employment tribunals for members of the agencies. I am advised by my colleagues at the Department of Trade and Industry that they intend to consult the ISC next month on draft regulations, and I hope that that will enable us to make progress. I cannot promise that all my responses today will be so expeditious or so welcome.
The right hon. Members for Bridgwater and for Horsham (Mr. Maude) raised the subject of the proposed memoirs of Stella Rimington. The text has been submitted to the agencies for scrutiny and Stella Rimington has agreed that nothing should be published that would undermine national security. She has not yet submitted the text to a publisher, so there is time for her to reflect on whether it would be right to do so. I am sure that she will wish to bear in mind the comments made here today as she comes to a judgment on whether to proceed.
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