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Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 7--Strategy: Wales.
New clause 2--Delegation of training programmes: Wales--
'. The National Council for Educational Training for Wales may, in discharging its duties under sections 30 to 34, delegate to the Employment Service in Wales the contracting and management of work-based training programmes of the kind hitherto within the responsibility of the training and enterprise councils.'.
New clause 3--National training opportunities network: Wales--
'. The National Council for Education and Training for Wales must, in fulfilling its duties under sections 31 and 32, establish a national training opportunities information and placement network for persons aged 16 or above.'.
Amendment No. 6, in clause 30, page 14, line 1, leave out from "appointing" to end of line 3 and insert--
'members to the Council the National Assembly must appoint at least one third from the private sector and at least one other member who is a training provider in Wales.'.
Amendment No. 2, in clause 46, page 21, line 19, at beginning insert--
'. The National Assembly shall appoint regional committees in accordance with the provisions of'.
Amendment No. 3, in page 21, line 19, leave out from "5" to end.
Government amendments Nos. 45 and 46.
Amendment No. 4, in schedule 5, page 80, line 5, leave out "may" and insert "shall".
Amendment No. 5, in page 80, line 5, at end insert--
'and at least half the appointments to such committees must be from the private sector, with at least one other member appointed from training providers in Wales.'.
Government amendments Nos. 47 and 52.
Mr. Hanson: I will speak briefly to the Government amendments and new clauses, which I hope are largely self-explanatory. New clause 6 arises from a request from the National Assembly and from discussions with my hon. Friends for the Bill to include more explicit provisions on the planning functions for the council in Wales. It sets out the duty of the council to formulate a plan that must be approved by the National Assembly, which will have powers to require alterations to the plan. Any such alterations must be made by the council.
Amendment No. 52 arises from new clause 6, and I hope that it is acceptable to the House. New clause 7 places a duty on the council to prepare a strategy relating to its functions and to keep that strategy under review. The strategy must contain proposals as to how the council intends to achieve the objectives contained in any directions from the National Assembly. Again, I hope that those provisions are acceptable to the House.
The remaining Government amendments in the group have already been extensively debated; they relate to the Learning and Skills Council for England and give similar powers to the council in Wales. I hope they are acceptable to the Opposition, because several of them--amendments Nos. 45 to 47--relate to points made by the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell) in Committee. I undertook to return to those matters on Report and have done so today. I commend the Government amendments and new clauses to the House.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) and my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) tabled new clauses and amendments that are included in the group. I shall listen to the points they make and respond in due course.
Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney): My right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) and I tabled new clauses 2 and 3 and four amendments. Although I shall try to deal with each provision as briefly as possible, they relate to matters of considerable relevance to training needs in Wales, so it is essential that I make some vital points.
New clause 2 aims to make it possible for the Employment Service to be the contracting and management agency for some of the work-based training
programmes that are currently under the governance of the training and enterprise councils. We had in mind especially work-based training programmes for the creation of adult employability: the pre-vocational training, occupational skills and recruitment and training programmes for the over-25s that are currently contracted to and delivered through the TECs and training providers.Such training programmes will better suit adults if they are linked closely to the new deal. Unlike Conservative Members, I believe that the new deal has been a great success story in our communities. It has broken with the fatalism and resignation that were left by the previous Administration and felt by many people--and not only by youngsters. They were left on the scrap-heap and were not offered meaningful training or employment opportunities.
I passionately believe that we should link training programmes for adult employability to the new deal. That is exactly what will happen in England. As I understand it, the new deal will be re-engineered in England for those aged over 25 to include what were the training and enterprise councils' training programmes. However, in Wales, the matter will remain with the National Assembly and be covered by its budget, so the programmes will not be a part of Employment Service provision. I hate to tell hon. Members and my colleagues in the National Assembly that I believe they have got it wrong in this respect--and only in this respect. England has got it right. A relationship should be created between the new deal and adult employment programmes as currently provided by the TECs, but that will disappear when the TECs disappear.
I have made this point before and the correspondence that I have received suggests there will be a new type of demarcation dispute. Because TEC budgets will go to the National Assembly and because employment services do not form an integral part of its role, the Assembly is jealously guarding its budget and the provisions for such programmes. I hope that such a petty demarcation dispute will not interfere with the best and most sensible way to deliver the programmes.
I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will accept new clause 2, but if he does not, will he assure us that there is nothing in the Bill to make it impossible for the Employment Service to deliver work-based training programmes in Wales? It is vital that we have that option. I fear that the National Assembly will not exercise it, which is why I seek a statutory basis for it in the Bill.
New clause 3 raises a separate and vital issue that I mentioned on Second Reading. Then, I explained that the catch-22 situation in our communities is that many employers do not offer training provision beyond NVQ 2. Many young people do not have the opportunity to train beyond that level, because work-based training programmes are not available. However, every survey that I have read suggests that we cannot have a new-tech or 21st century economy without such additional provision. How do we break through that catch-22? Because employers do not offer NVQ 3 training opportunities, how will young people in communities such as mine obtain such opportunities?
I draw an analogy with the position of a pupil in a sixth form studying A-levels and looking for a place a university. In such a case, a huge administration--the Universities Central Council on Admissions--ensures that a person with two Cs and a D can find a place at
university anywhere in the country. A huge organisation is designed to find a place for a person who wishes to pursue the academic route. However, there is no equivalent for vocational training. As so often, it is a Cinderella subject.New clause 3 suggests that the new National Council for Education and Training for Wales would have a duty to set up a network to provide a vocational equivalent of the UCCA system for people who want to pursue vocational training opportunities that are not available in their local community or that are not provided by companies in their immediate vicinity. However, those opportunities may be available elsewhere--and, in my area, along the M4 at Sony, in Bridgend. How does a youngster find out what opportunities might be available in places other than in his immediate vicinity?
11 pm
Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon): Information is necessary, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that if young people have to travel considerable distances in the more rural areas, there will be a need for financial assistance to enable them to do so?
Mr. Rowlands: I agree that we should expand opportunity, and that will require additional financial provision. If anything should be the subject of an objective 1-type funding scheme, it should be the proposal that I am putting forward. We need to train the infrastructure of minds and skills as well as developing the physical infrastructure in our community. Objective 1 funding could assist, promote and deliver greater training opportunities. Financial provision for travel and access is extremely important.
Many of the young people in the community of the right hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) or in mine do not know where these opportunities lie. If they were taking A-levels and wanted a place in a university, a huge organisation would help them find that place. There is not an equivalent for those with training needs. I am trying to place a duty and responsibility on the new Welsh council, but it might be an English point, too. There is a case for establishing a training network.
Amendments Nos. 2 to 5 relate to the composition of the national council and the issue of regional committees and their composition. As for the Welsh provision, we have nothing more than a skeleton. We do not know what the structures will be below the national council. This is the new post-devolution flexi-legislation. The issue will be left to the National Assembly to determine. Hon. Members, certainly those of us who represent Welsh constituencies and know something about training, have a perfect right to prescribe ideas and views on the nature and character of the council and the structures below it.
Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 suggest that employers should constitute a third of the appointments and training providers. Those who provide training should serve on the national council. I do not know who will be the chairman. I understand, however, that the English council chairman has been announced. In Wales, there is a powerful need for a total commitment to the scheme by employers. The TECs have failed in many respects because there was not an employer commitment. By giving employers a significant role to play at national council level and in regional committees, we hope to bind Welsh employers
into the entire process. By giving them the privilege of belonging, serving and being an essential part of it, we hope that that will lead to commitment, involvement and obligation.
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