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Mr. Hanson: I give way to my hon. Friend.
Mr. Rowlands: I believe that what my hon. Friend has said is what I want, which is that the TECs' budget money that will now go to the National Assembly after their abolition, and, with the resultant employment problems, will be given to the council, and the council could disburse that money to the Employment Service, although the Employment Service budget is not within the National Assembly. Is that right?
Mr. Hanson: As I have explained to my hon. Friend, the position is that the council in Wales is able, where appropriate and desirable, to include the Employment Service, if it wishes, in the disbursement and undertakings that it wants to make. Where appropriate and desirable, it has the option of working closely with the Employment Service. However, the Employment Service is not devolved. What I am really indicating is more co-operative work rather than disbursements.
My hon. Friend spoke about his new clause 3. The existing careers service in Wales, under contract with the Assembly, is already empowered under the Employment and Training Act 1973 to provide a placement service for young people seeking training opportunities. Under its supervision, the current service will be developed and enhanced as part of an all-age information, advice and guidance service, and there will be a wider Wales careers service launched by the National Assembly from April 2001. I hope that that answers some of the points that my hon. Friend raised.
With regard to membership, my hon. Friend will be aware that, under clause 30, the council is due to be constituted with between 10 and 12 members. I accept his point about the commitment of employers. I hope that employers, and, indeed, other sectors of the community, will get on board and provide strong support for the council in Wales. However, if we reserve places for the private sector and employers we shall be restricting the National Assembly's choice in the matter. I hope that my hon. Friend will accept my belief that there should be a commitment from employers, but that reserving places would be too prescriptive for the National Assembly, which wants to see candidates whose experience and qualities match the needs of the public bodies which they will serve. The scrutiny by the Assembly will be important.
My hon. Friend said that he wished to see regional committees. I draw his attention to the fact that regional committees exist in the National Assembly, looking at a range of issues across the Assembly at large. If my hon. Friend's amendment were passed, he would in a sense be creating two sets of regional committees, each having functions in respect of areas of responsibility within
Wales. That would lead to confusion. I hope that he will accept that, within the regional committee structure in Wales, there is an opportunity for regional input into a whole range of policies across the National Assembly, including within the councils.
Mr. Rowlands: Will the National Assembly's regional committees be the watchdogs of the regional offices of the national council? I read out the answer to the question in the TEC brochure, which arrived in the post today, saying that the offices will have committees which advise the national council on regional policies. Are they the regional committees of the Assembly or will they be specially established committees to act as watchdogs over the regional offices of what were the TECs?
Mr. Hanson: The regional committees of the National Assembly can look at any aspect, and obviously can look at the whole range of matters on policy issues. I shall happily meet my hon. Friend, as I have done before, and discuss that point in detail. I hope that, on the basis of that further offer and the assurances I have given, he will be able not to press his amendments and support the Government amendments.
Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 7
Strategy: Wales
' .--(1) The Council must formulate a strategy in relation to its functions and keep it under review.
(2) The Council must incorporate in the strategy proposals as to--
(a) how it intends to achieve any objectives contained in directions of the National Assembly;
(b) how it intends to achieve such objectives within any time limits contained in such directions.
(3) The strategy must include proposals as to how the Council intends to develop the skills of persons in employment; but this does not affect the generality of subsection (1).
(4) The Council--
(a) may at any time send to the National Assembly a copy of the strategy as it subsists for the time being;
(b) must at such times as the National Assembly indicates send to the Assembly a copy of the strategy as it subsists for the time being.
(5) The National Assembly must approve the strategy sent to it or require the Council to make specified alterations of it; and if alterations are required the Council must make them.
(6) In exercising its functions the Council must have regard to the strategy as approved by the National Assembly or as altered in accordance with its requirements.'.--[Mr. Hanson.]
Brought up, read the First and Second Time, and added to the Bill.
Clause 38
Amendments made: No. 33, in page 18, line 8, after "promote" insert "--
(a)''.
No. 34, in page 18, line 9, at end insert--
'(b) the making of arrangements which qualify under section 101.'.
No. 35, in page 18, line 10, at end insert--
'( ) may be specified as a body with which arrangements under section 101 may be made;
( ) may be designated by the National Assembly under section 102(1) or (3) and may act in accordance with such a designation;'.--[Mr. Betts.]
Clause 41
Amendments made: No. 59, in page 19, line 7, leave out "adequate".
No. 60, in page 19, line 7, after "training" insert--
'which are sufficient in quantity and adequate in quality'.--[Mr. Betts.]
Clause 44
Amendment made: No. 92, in page 20, line 22, leave out paragraphs (c) and (d) and insert--
'(c) to subscribe for or otherwise acquire shares in or securities of a company unless the National Assembly consents.'.--[Mr. Betts.]
Schedule 4
Amendments made: No. 45, in page 77, line 4, after "member" insert--
'or chairman or chief executive'.
No. 46, in page 77, line 6, after "chairman" insert "or chief executive".--[Mr. Betts.]
Schedule 5
Amendment made: No. 47, in page 80, line 36, after "member" insert "or chairman".--[Mr. Betts.]
Clause 59
Mr. Wicks: I beg to move amendment No. 17, in page 27, line 11, after "teachers" insert "or lecturers".
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendment No. 18.
Amendment No. 77, in clause 67, page 30, line 40, at end add--
'(6) The Inspectorate and the Chief Inspector, acting together, shall publish at least annually a report on the operation of the framework.'.
Government amendments Nos. 23 to 25.
Government new clause 5--Annual Plan of the Chief Inspector for Wales.
Amendment No. 7, in clause 75, page 34, line 16, at end insert--
'(3A) In conducting inspections of any training providers the Chief Inspector must have regard to the terms of the providers' contract.'.
Government amendments Nos. 20 to 22, 26 and 27.
Mr. Wicks: In essence, the provisions for the annual plan of the chief inspector for Wales are the subject of the amendments. New clause 5 places a duty on the chief inspector for Wales to prepare an annual plan for the forthcoming financial year and submit it to the National Assembly. The plan must set out the chief inspector's proposals for the way in which she intends to use the funds made available to her to carry out her inspection and other functions. Amendment No. 26 would place the Assembly under a duty to approve the chief inspector's annual plan for the forthcoming financial year, which she will be required to submit under new clause 5.
The other Government amendments are minor corrections and technical adjustments, with which I shall not try the patience of the House.
Mr. Boswell: First, I shall deal briefly with Government amendment No. 17, to which the Minister referred somewhat perfunctorily as part of a clutch of Government amendments. I should be grateful for the Minister's reassurance; I therefore mention it before considering amendment No. 77.
Government amendment No. 17 would include in the chief inspector's remit the ability to consider
- functions with respect to the training of or for teachers
I should also value the Minister's comments on instructors, who are important staff in further education colleges. They are not lecturers; they often instruct in specific technical skills. I am not clear whether the remit of Ofsted and the chief inspector would extend to them. If not, why not? How will the matter be resolved?
Amendment No. 77 reflects our continuing anxieties about the incoherence--to put it charitably--of the Government's provisions for inspection in England. I did not try to join in the Welsh debate, but, as some hon. Members know, my wife is from Wales and she is involved in education. Many members of her family before her have been involved in education in Wales. I take the Welsh analogy seriously. Even if the Welsh model of a single inspection is not the right template for England, it is perhaps more coherent than that for England.
Whatever would have been right for England, the Government have devised a messy structure, including a framework for the collaboration of the chief inspector of schools and the chief inspector of adult learning. We debated that extensively in Committee. I do not wish to reproduce those debates. We hope that the relationship will work well and harmoniously. That is more likely than
not. I was reassured by a presentation that Her Majesty's chief inspector for 16 to 19 education gave in the House. That is an important relationship, and, in Committee, we rehearsed what would happen if it broke down or was not as harmonious as it should be. We also discussed, and the Government introduced, provision for revising the framework as time, circumstances and experience dictate.I realise that, at this late stage, Ministers may not be inclined to rewrite the Bill, but they should have it in mind that one way to deal with potential tension would be to get the two chief inspectors to sit down at least once a year and write an account of how the framework was going. They could--one hopes that they would do it jointly--draw attention to any difficulties in the framework. For example, they might want to float proposals for changes to the framework. If nothing else, that would provide us with an opportunity, perhaps through an Adjournment debate in the House or in Westminster Hall, to raise concerns about the framework.
My points about Government amendment No. 17 are probing, and my remarks about amendment No. 77 relate to the need to run past the House, or the general public, how the framework is going. We hope that it will be harmonious and that the two chief inspectors will work together and not find themselves in constructive tension.
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