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Mr. Ian Bruce: It is rare for me to think that my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell) is taking any matter to an extreme, but I think that the Minister is aware of a case in my constituency that is especially apposite to this debate about the proposed powers to transfer assets that have been given to a TEC for a particular purpose.
Weymouth college is based at two sites. One of them was passed to the college by a local estate, with the not unusual proviso that the asset should be used only for educational purposes. [Interruption.] Does the Secretary of State wish to intervene?
Mr. Blunkett: I think that the hon. Gentleman is out of order.
Mr. Bruce: It seems that the right hon. Gentleman wants to do your job, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
The college wants to sell one site and to use the funds from the sale on rebuilding at the second site, but it has been told that those funds may revert to the state. I have had legal opinion from the Treasury Solicitor and the Attorney-General to the effect that this matter has to be tested in the courts. The college cannot simply sell one site and transfer the proceeds into educational spending.
That is exactly what is happening with TECs. They have been given assets for particular purposes; the money has been voted by Parliament. However, those assets will now be taken away from the TECs and used for other purposes. I hope that the Minister will address that point in relation to the Government's amendments.
Mr. Brooke: I rise in support of my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell). I apologise for the lateness of the hour, although that is not wholly of the Opposition's making. I commend the Government Back Benchers, who are being remarkably patient--rather more patient than Front Benchers.
The Government have a tough timetable in terms of implementing everything in the Bill for the deadline of 1 April next year. There must be a degree of anxiety about whether these matters will be concluded before the
Bill becomes an Act and while it is still before Parliament. In view of the Minister's observations about contingent liabilities and the discussions about them, it would seem eminently desirable that those discussions should be concluded before the Bill is finally enacted.I am conscious that the issue hangs on one or two cases, and that is why the Secretary of State is seeking these powers. The problem is that one or two cases could be a moving target unless there is some process of identifying them to the official Opposition. That has to be a concern, although naturally there is a sense of trust towards the Government. However, the Government have said that the problems arising in one or two cases have prompted this measure.
The greatest hazard in what has, in principle, been an orderly and amicable process up to now, is the law of human nature that makes people behave according to the way in which they are treated. If they are treated as though a blunderbuss will be held to their head in the final analysis, that alters the climate in which the negotiations take place.
I think that the Minister must give greater assurances on how the Government will bring this matter to a conclusion while the Bill is still in front of the two Houses of Parliament.
Mr. Wicks: I genuinely regret the stance of the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell). I pay tribute to the majority of TECs, and those associated with them, for their excellent work. We all know that there has been variation in quality, but I do not want to dwell on that. We want to build on good practice. We fully expect large numbers of excellent staff and many directors of TECs to be part of the new infrastructure of learning and skills councils.
It is important to emphasise again that, in the vast majority of cases, we are having sensible and calm discussions with TECs, helped by a firm of auditors and accountants, to look at complex issues about assets. They are complex because there is no such thing as a typical TEC. They vary a great deal--some, for example, are in partnership with chambers of commerce. We are looking at that in great detail. The process is being pursued in an orderly way. We may never need to make use of the amendment, but some cases concern us.
The hon. Gentleman adopted a rather belligerent tone, calling me the school bully. My job, and that of the Secretary of State, is to be vigilant on behalf of the public about the public's purse. I will give some instances, but I will not name names--unless I am tempted. In a number of instances, we have had to take firm action to prevent a TEC from taking steps that we do not consider to be in the public interest. These include a proposal to move a freehold property outside the control of the Department's debenture, the movement of a large sum of reserves into a trust and a proposal to establish a separate company with two TEC employees as the only shareholders. We have managed to head off those proposals, in part through existing powers in the contract and in part through stern discussions with some of those involved. However--and this is the rub--we are not confident that the contract can cover all the situations that may arise.
I emphasise that, faced with the situation in which some people are forming new companies and setting themselves up as the only shareholders, there is a real risk that they
will take the public's money and run. We will not let them run away with the public's money. That is why--yes, with a heavy heart and much consideration--we have tabled the amendment.12 midnight
The TECs have money that is generated from the public, but I have already made it clear that where, for example, chambers are involved and they wish to re-establish themselves as sole chambers, we will be helpful in terms of the assets that we require. Where there is local money, which does not properly need to be transferred to the Secretary of State, it will be used for proper local purposes. We have to be vigilant on behalf of the public. That is what this Parliament is about; it is what the Government are about; and it is what the amendment is about.
Clause 90
Amendment made: No. 37, in page 40, line 27, leave out 'or 89' and insert--
', 89 or (Transfers: Wales)'.--[Mr. Blunkett.]
Clause 91
Amendment made: No. 38, in page 40, line 32, leave out 'or 89' and insert--
', 89 or (Transfers: Wales)'.--[Mr. Blunkett.]
Clause 99
Amendment made: No. 39, in page 45, line 2, at end insert--
'(2A) In subsection (3) of section 24 for "(g)" substitute "(gg)".'.--[Mr. Wills.]
Clause 100
Amendments made: No. 95, in page 45, line 39, leave out--
'in or as regards Scotland'
and insert--
'for the purposes of any provision of, or made under, an Act of the Scottish Parliament authorising grants to be paid to, or in respect of, individuals in connection with their education or training; and for this purpose references in this section to the Secretary of State are to be treated as references to the Scottish Ministers.'.
No. 96, in page 45, line 40, at end insert--
'(8) For the purposes of this section an enactment includes an Act of the Scottish Parliament.'.--[Mr. Betts.]
Clause 101
Amendments made: No. 97, in page 46, line 26, after 'are' insert '--
(a)''.
No. 98, in page 46, line 27, leave out 'or Northern Ireland'.
No. 99, in page 46, line 28, at end insert--
', or
(b) arrangements which qualify under section (Qualifying arrangements: Northern Ireland).'.--[Mr. Betts.]
Clause 102
Amendment made: No. 100, in page 46, line 42, at end insert--
'(5) The Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment in Northern Ireland (or a person designated by it) may make arrangements with a body in connection with the making by that body of arrangements which qualify under section (Qualifying arrangements: Northern Ireland).
(6) Subsections (2) to (4) apply to arrangements under subsection (5) as they apply to arrangements under subsection (1); and for this purpose references in subsections (2) to (4) to the Secretary of State are to be treated as references to the Department.'.--[Mr. Betts.]
Clause 108
Mr. Boswell: I beg to move amendment No. 78, in page 49, line 38, after 'particular'", insert--
', while having regard to the needs of all young people for access to independent guidance and to a mode of service which is appropriate to their particular circumstances'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 103, in clause 109, page 50, line 21, after 'team', insert--
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