| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Dr. Howells: I assure the hon. Gentleman that we took advice. I understand the point that he makes, and I hope that a wide range of LLPs will be formed.
Mr. O'Brien: That is somewhat reassuring, and I thank the Minister for letting me know that that advice has been taken. It would be helpful to share it a little more fully later.
Such entities will be attractive to property companies, which, as we know, have particular risks and liabilities. The contractual and relationship issues in business are often represented by those concerned with property valuations and the title to ownership, and LLPs will hold a significant attraction to property ventures. There is a demand in property companies to examine--again, reflecting experience abroad--whether it would be appropriate and sensible for their competitiveness to create a mechanism by which a particular partner in such a property LLP could opt out of being bound. At the moment, all LLP members will be entitled to buy because of the way in which LLPs are structured. That is a matter of serious debate because of the nature of accountability and transparency, but is also goes to the heart of the way in which property risk is assessed and represented. Although I mentioned that in Committee, I wanted to place it on the record again now.
The Minister generously suggested that I had made some constructive points during the consideration of the Bill. I am not flattered, because I realise that that is part of the hon. Gentleman's customary generosity. But I am concerned that the points that I made on clause 8 were not taken up. The concern is that there has been an attempt to retain the partnership ethic, by which all members take responsibility, under the requirements of clause 8, unless at least two designated members have been appointed.
Although I can understand the mindset that has driven that provision, I am concerned especially about those LLPs that will not have the appropriate expertise, such as firms that are not accountants or solicitors, which, again, have driven the thinking on the provision. Given the importance of the compliance and governance needed to deliver the very transparency and accountability that is at the heart of the Bill, it would have been appropriate to examine more closely the possibility of having a partnership secretary, company secretary, or a designated person.
There is a distinction to be drawn between members, who clearly carry the overall business responsibility and accountability, and those who are required to deliver compliance and governance. As the Minister has said, nothing precludes an LLP appointing such a person as an employee. However, it would have been better to state that in the Bill, if for no other reason than that similar provisions exist under the Companies Acts for company secretaries in plcs. That confers the necessary status and authority in the corporate entity to command the necessary respect around the board table--or, in this case, around the LLP members table--where advice, high technical competence or a degree of conscience are required of the corporate entity to ensure governance. That is the case not least because things are not always
rosy in partnerships; there will be disputes and factions. At times, it is helpful if such a person sits at the high table with the status and professional expertise to take the necessary action. It is disappointing that that point has not been taken more seriously.That said, I have thought carefully about the Bill and whether I should have tabled amendments in Committee and on Report. I chose not to do so because the Bill is part of a wider issue; a major consultation exercise is being undertaken on company law reform. That consultation has run somewhat parallel to the Bill, but the latter preceded it because of the way in which the legislation has come about. In that context, I hope and request that the Minister and his officials in the Department will carefully consider the points that I made about clause 8; they are even more important in the context of that company law reform.
We should take advantage of all that has been learned about governance during the past 10 years, not least from the Cadbury report and the ensuing developments. We should at last put the genuine expectations about what is required of companies on a much more sound footing, and perhaps frame them in statute. We should ensure that they have the requisite person in place to ensure good governance. I shall defer pressing that point until we debate company law reform. I thank the Minister for the courtesy with which he has treated the points that I have made. I, too, agree that the process has been worth while.
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, with amendments.
Fur Farming (Prohibition) Bill
Not amended in the Standing Committee, considered.
Clause 2
7.26 pm
Mr. Malcolm Moss (North-East Cambridgeshire): I beg to move amendment No. 2, in page 2, line 2, leave out 'or other disposal'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 3, in clause 3, page 2, line 22, leave out 'or other disposal'.
No. 4, in page 2, line 26, leave out 'or other disposal'.
Mr. Moss: These amendments, which my hon. Friend the Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown) and I have tabled, relate to clauses 2 and 3. Clause 2 deals with forfeiture orders that a court may make if a person has been convicted of an offence of keeping an animal for fur under clause 1. Clause 2(3) states:
- a forfeiture order is an order for the forfeiture and destruction or other disposal--
- of the animals.
The purpose of the amendments is to discover what disposal will be possible, other than the destruction of the animals subject to the forfeiture order. After all, by definition, those provisions will not come into play until fur farming becomes a criminal offence, so there can be no question that the animals will continue to be farmed. Although the Bill refers to animals raised for fur, we know that its thrust is against the 13 mink farms that currently exist in this country. Mink are the only animals likely to come within the ambit of the Bill. Mink are not likely to be regarded as ideal pets for anyone.
We want the Minister to explain why an alternative provision exists, other than for the destruction of those animals. Mink are not only unsuitable to be kept as pets, but they are extremely damaging and dangerous animals in the wild, and significant costs have been involved--
Maria Eagle (Liverpool, Garston): Has the hon. Gentleman had an opportunity to read the Hansard reports of the Standing Committee that considered a similar Bill in the previous Session? If he has, he will have found that his questions are answered there.
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire): So what?
Mr. Moss: We want the Minister to tell us why the Bill still contains those words, despite comments made recently in Committee. We recognise that the Bill relates primarily to mink. We know that they cannot be kept as pets and that they create huge damage if they are released or escape into the environment. The only sensible action to take under a forfeiture order will be to destroy those animals.
7.30 pm
Mr. Andrew Hunter (Basingstoke): I speak in support of the amendments, and I immediately assure the hon. Member for Liverpool, Garston (Maria Eagle) that not only have I read the Official Report of our Committee proceedings this year, but I can vaguely recall the Committee proceedings of the previous year.
I support the amendments, because we have still not received an adequate answer to a point that we have raised time and again. The hon. Lady and the Minister might recall that when I moved a similar amendment last year to a similar Bill, I advanced the argument that my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) has just made. In reality, we all know that there is no alternative to destruction for the overwhelming majority of animals currently farmed for their fur. Because of that, we are entitled to ask why the Bill contains the words "or other disposal".
On previous occasions, hon. Members who support the Bill, and the cause of which it is an expression, have sometimes intervened with the telling word "chinchilla". I would not claim to be an expert on the habitat and the natural habits of the chinchilla, but it has been offered to us as the reason for the three words "or other disposal" appearing in the Bill. It has been explained that in some circumstances chinchilla can become domestic pets.
That proposition is particularly intriguing. Perhaps chinchilla are capable of becoming domestic pets, but what is the welfare ground for objecting to their being farmed? It would seem that an animal that can adapt itself to domestic circumstances can also adapt to being farmed, if that takes place with the due regulations for its welfare in place. The defence of the words "or other disposal" opens another weakness in the Bill. What are the welfare grounds for the criminalisation of the farming of a particular species of fur-bearing animal?
There is another dimension to the amendments and to the inclusion of the words "or other disposal" that puzzles me. As the House will know, the words stem from a forfeiture order made under clause 2(1), which states that a
- court may make a forfeiture order in respect of any animals of that description.
- are kept by that person when the order is made or which come into his keeping during the relevant period.
The amendments point to a weakness in clauses 2 and 3. The court will not be able to make a sound or reasonable judgment under the existing mechanisms as to whether another form of disposal is possible. That brings
us back to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire. We know perfectly well that when a forfeiture order is made, the animals will be destroyed. It follows logically that the Bill should contain provision only for destruction and that the words "or other disposal", which appear in clause 2(3) and 3(3)(b) and (c), should be omitted. That would make the Bill tidier, and it would be common sense.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |