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The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Elliot Morley): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Gray: As I have named the Minister, perhaps unfairly, I shall give way to him.
Mr. Morley: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw. I have spoken out on many occasions against
illegal activities, including the deliberate release of mink into the wild. That has been my long-standing position, and I have been robust about it.
Mr. Gray: If that is what the Minister understood by my remarks, I withdraw. I would not for a moment suggest that he condoned such illegal activities. I know that he has been robust in saying that they must not happen. I also know that he has a long and distinguished record and career in the animal welfare and rights lobby. My precise words were that his friends in the animal rights lobby do the things that I have described. I was not suggesting that he did. If that was his interpretation of my remarks, I apologise. I know perfectly well that he would not take such action.
Perhaps the Minister would not suggest that mink should be released into the wild, but there are certainly those on the more extreme wing of the animal rights movement who would. If that were to happen, I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House, and those on both sides of the argument, know how catastrophic the results would be for native wildlife. I hope that the more extreme voices will not be heard.
Perhaps mink could be sold alive. There are those, perhaps the farmers themselves, who would say, "There are perfectly good fur farmers 20 miles away across the channel in Calais. I shall transport my 100,000 live mink in cages to Calais." Will that be allowed? We no longer allow the export of live calves. Are we to allow the live export of mink? I do not think that we should. The carrying around of mink in cages on lorries is probably less humane than slaughtering them on the farm. That is the view that has been taken by slaughterhouses. I do not think that mink should be exported, and certainly not to Calais. Even less should they be exported to Russia, where much mink farming continues. Similarly, they should not be exported to Canada.
The words "or other disposal" presumably allow the possibility of live export of mink. I suspect that the Minister should ensure that the wording of the clause is made much more precise so that we know exactly what is intended to happen to mink. On Third Reading, I shall talk about the more general principle, but I am not convinced that there is a moral argument in favour of banning fur farming. There may be an animal welfare argument in favour of it, but I suspect that that can better be answered by laying down regulations for the better protection of the animals in their cages, as we did for pigs, for example, than by the enactment of the Bill.
If the Bill is to become law and if we are to see the 130,000 mink now alive disposed of, it is extremely important that we and others who care about animal welfare should know precisely what the Government have in mind for their disposal. Are they to be carried overseas in ships or aeroplanes? Are they to be slaughtered by humane means or by less than humane means on the farm? Are they to be transported to slaughterhouses to be disposed of? What is to happen to the pelts and the carcases?
These are issues that may be dismissed by those who are interested only in the so-called moral issues, but they are important to farmers and to those of us who truly care about animal welfare. That is why these amendments are more probing than anything else. What does "or other disposal" mean? What lies behind the phrase? What is in
the Minister's mind? What other means of disposal could there be? Are those other means of disposal acceptable to a humane society? I suspect that they may not be.I suspect that the Bill would be a great deal better drafted, clearer, and better from the point of view of the welfare of the unfortunate mink, if the words "or other disposal" were struck out in the three places where they currently appear.
Mr. Owen Paterson (North Shropshire): Returning to this subject is rather like the end of term. Several Members now in their places considered the earlier private Member's Bill, served on the Committee considering this Bill, and have also considered it at other stages. It has been rather like a dialogue of the deaf, and now we are all reassembled. My hon. Friends and I are making same old points, which, sadly, have not sunk in with the Government draftsmen, and the Bill is as bad as it ever was.
I shall begin by considering what will be caught by the forfeiture order, and perhaps clarify the matter for my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) and for my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg). I suggest that we consider the problems with which magistrates will be faced if the Bill becomes an Act. The starting point is the definition of fur when deciding where the forfeiture order comes from.
- A person is guilty of an offence if he keeps animals solely or primarily . . . for slaughter . . . for the value of their fur.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot discuss that matter under the amendments, which relate just to the words "or other disposal". They are narrow amendments.
Mr. Paterson: I am trying to define which animals will be caught by the requirement in clause 2(3), Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We are discussing an amendment, not a clause. As I have said, the amendment is narrow. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will have a glance at the amendment and then speak to it.
Mr. Paterson: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
The amendments are clear in that they remove the words "or other disposal" from one place in clause 2 and two in clause 3. Surely it is important to define which animals will be caught by the Bill. There is some misunderstanding about what counts as fur. We must consider the problem of a magistrate who has to interpret this measure once it becomes law. When faced with a possible prosecution, how will the magistrate define which animals will be caught by the Act?
Is it sensible to let the clause stand as it is, and provide for either destruction or other means of disposal? Or, as we suggest in the amendment, should destruction be the only solution? I can refer to a lengthier definition, possibly on Third Reading. The definition of "raw fur skins" means not only the skins of mink and rabbit but
those of various types of lamb. Following your instruction, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall go into these matters at greater length later in our consideration of the Bill.There is no problem in disposing of some sorts of lamb by other means. I do not see a problem in selling astrakhans, broadtails or caracals. We can go into that later. A hole in the Bill is that it would be possible to raise a bovine animal for the value of its hide if it had fur on it. The Minister shakes his head. I accept that we have had these disputes in previous discussions. However, as the Bill is drafted, it would be possible to raise a bovine animal such as the belted Galloway, which would possibly have a very valuable hide. That would come under the definition in chapter 43 of the Official Journal of the European Communities. Again, the Minister shakes his head. However, he is wrong. It is an unlikely event, but such an animal could be covered by the Bill.
In any event, I would let the clause stand for the disposal of bovine animals or ovine animals--sheep or goats. I do not see a problem in moving them on. However, we cannot allow mink or smaller farmed animals to be disposed of elsewhere. There is great skill in looking after mink. As we know, there is a huge raft of legislation that binds current farmers. We know that there are only 11 of them. They do their job with great diligence and skill, and there have been very few escapes, apart from unnecessary releases caused by animal activists. It is incumbent upon the farmers to ensure that the animals do not escape. If anyone else is involved, an escape is possible. I have seen horrendous damage done by escaped mink in the borders of Wales where I live. The water rat population has been virtually eliminated and ground nesting birds have been destroyed. This has probably been done by mink which at some stage have escaped from fur farms.
I have great confidence that the 11 fur farmers who remain are highly competent and skilled at their job and well qualified to organise the destruction of the mink. My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire discussed various methods of destruction. As I understand it, every mink farmer in this country gases the mink. The process is extremely swift, and dramatically more humane than what we put cattle through, transporting them long distances under the Government's over-30-months scheme, for example. The mink is transferred from its cage to a small box a few feet away and rendered unconscious within seconds. I think that it dies in under a minute. It is a very swift process.
8 pm
Mr. Gray: For the sake of accuracy, may I say that I think that three methods are permitted under the law: carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and lethal injection, although I am not sure that any of the farmers use that last method?
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