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Paragraph 3 of the new schedule requires that
- The independent advisory body shall be set up no later than the day after the day on which this Act is passed.
In paragraph 4 of the new schedule we have suggested that the independent advisory body should be free to have discussions with people involved in fur farming in the rest of the European Union. Although members of the advisory body may not seek that guidance and advice or help, we feel that there should be such a provision because the scale of the fur farming operation elsewhere in the European Union is immense compared with our own. We have 11 farmers; I believe that there are about 8,000 fur farmers in the rest of the EU, so we would argue that the expertise in that business is far greater than in this country, and it would be very helpful if the independent advisory body were allowed, within its articles of association, if I may call them that, to consult in that way.
Finally, paragraph 6 of the new schedule says that
- The . . . advisory body shall report back
- no later than 6 months prior to the date on which Sections 1 to 4 shall come into force.
- no day before 1st January 2003.
I have explained the long list of amendments dealing with compensation. As I said in my opening remarks, the provisions relating to compensation are the most critical part of the Bill as it stands. Only a small number of people are involved, but their businesses are extremely important to them. They are, in the present context, in the main lucrative businesses, and it is important that the processes that deal with compensation should be independent and transparent, and that there should be recourse to all the professional help that is available in order to arrive at fair, proper and adequate compensation.
Mr. Hogg: This is a terribly important group of amendments. I support not the exact wording of the amendments that my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) has spoken to, for reasons that I shall explain, but their underlying purpose.
First, let me say where my hon. Friend and I are not at one, because I think that my understanding of the group of amendments is slightly different from his. My
understanding of the Bill as it is currently formulated is that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is obliged to bring forward a scheme for England but in the case of Wales it is a matter of discretion. Therefore the effect of amendment No. 5 impacts only on the Welsh dimension; it makes it mandatory for Wales to bring forward a scheme. In principle, that of course is right, although I would have to accept the principles of devolution. It may well be right for the Welsh Assembly to determine whether there should be a compensation scheme within Wales. None the less, in principle, I feel sure that there should be a compensation scheme.The Bill, as it is formulated, places a duty on the Minister to produce a scheme. The Bill is defective in that there is no requirement--I emphasise that word--as to what should be in the scheme. There is a permissive power to include within it a range of heads of compensation, which are set out in clause 5(2)(a)(b) and (c). They may be included, but do not have to be.
The advantage of the approach of my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire is that it provides for an independent body to make a recommendation, which has to provide for various forms of compensation. Why is it important that there should be an independent body of the sort recommended by my hon. Friend? In part, the argument is as he has stated it, namely, that we need transparency and independence, because--I now speak with some experience of the matter, if you will forgive my saying so, Mr. Deputy Speaker--all Government Departments are mean. They have to be mean because they are acting within a budget. One can be certain that if the Minister is the sole person or body to set up the compensation scheme, as the Bill provides, it will be done extremely meanly because of the budgetary constraints under which the Department is operating.
Furthermore, a challenge can be made under the Bill only within the framework of the scheme that the Minister has produced. The Minister is not only responsible for the scheme, he is the payer. A successful challenge would have to be within the scope of the scheme that the Minister has produced and that constrains the right of appeal in a way that is wrong.
Another argument is that the European convention on human rights will be in operation from 2 October. One of the consequences of article 1 of the first protocol, and of other articles, is the obligation to pay compensation. Governments may well be moving towards compensation requirements because of that convention and its impact on the compensation duties of Departments.
I point out to the Minister that, as my hon. Friend said, if there is a duty under the European convention to pay compensation, it is pretty certain that the European Court of Human Rights will require that the criteria for compensation should be set out and determined either by statute on the face of the Bill or by some independent body. Otherwise, to return to the argument that I was making a few moments ago, the payer will set up the scheme and will limit the ability of the claimant to challenge it. I very much doubt whether that will be held to be consistent with the convention. Therefore, my hon. Friend is trying to give the Government some reinforcement, although I do not suppose that the Minister will welcome it.
I deplore the measure. It is an odious little Bill. That said, however, we must deal with it as it is. In its present form I suspect that it is not compatible with the European
convention because the compensation provisions do not appear in it in an explicit form and there is no independent body to set out the criteria. Therefore, there is a real danger of a declaration of incompatibility down the track, or an application to Strasbourg.My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire is giving the Parliamentary Secretary an opportunity to reinforce the Bill. I told my hon. Friend that I welcomed the purpose of his amendment, but one or two adjustments need to be made if its principle is to be accepted. Neither the scheme in the Bill nor the scheme in my hon. Friend's amendment make a requirement--I underline that word--to pay compensation for loss of profit. It may be addressed in the scheme proposed by the Minister, but it does not have to be.
Why on earth are we not providing for loss of profit to be a mandatory element in the compensation scheme? My hon. Friend's approach, if adopted, would need adjustment in another place to make the provision of a loss-of-profit element mandatory. I also wish to draw attention to the fact that compensation is simply for the value of the animals. The animals themselves have a value, which is different from the loss of profit, although they overlap. The Parliamentary Secretary looks pensive, but I assure him that that is the case. There are two elements: the value of the beast and the damage to the business. When people go out and buy a lot of beasts, they incur costs in acquiring them. Those beasts have a value. Down the track, however, there is a continuing profit for the business. Obviously there is an overlap, but those heads of loss are different.
The Bill or my Friend's scheme, when adjusted, should make provision for mandatory compensation to be paid for the loss of the beasts themselves. My hon. Friend has enabled the House to raise the question of compensation. I welcome his approach, which would impose yet more mandatory duties on the Government. I also welcome it because my hon. Friend suggests that the scheme should include various heads of loss that are not currently included. Personally, I think that he has not gone quite far enough and that the matter should be examined further in another place. However, I have no doubt that he has moved in the correct direction and I support the purpose of his amendment even though, if he will forgive me, I have one or two misgivings about some of its language.
Mr. Hunter: I shall be brief, as the points relevant to the amendments have been expressed clearly by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg).
I wish to pick up one aspect of what my right hon. and learned Friend has just said about the European dimension, which is so relevant to the compensation issue. The Minister will correct me if I am wrong or mistaken, but I have received briefing material which states that the European Commission has advised member states not to proceed with legislation on a national basis prior to the introduction of a directive which is currently being worked on. I have been given a facsimile of a document that purports to be to that effect.
No doubt the Minister will be able to advise me whether that is right or wrong. He will acknowledge that the European Union is beginning to move on that front,
that growing attention is being paid to the issue of fur farming and that, in the course of time, movement is likely. In advancing down the way of national legislation on compensation, I am concerned that, while one or two cases of compensation are perhaps fully sorted out and others are in the pipeline, an entirely different regime will be imposed by the European Union.I should like the Minister to contemplate that scenario, which is not impossible, and could arise and present enormous difficulties. That possible scenario makes it all the more advantageous and desirable that an advisory body, composed of independent advisers, is created.
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