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Angela Smith (Basildon): Several times in his speech, my right hon. Friend has commented on his surprise at the Opposition's choice of issue for the Opposition day debate. I have two suggestions for him. First, even despite the mass exodus we saw earlier, they have the most Members present ever for an Opposition debate. On issues
such as crime and housing, there are usually about three people in the Chamber. Secondly, the Opposition are trying to find a defence to explain to their voters why they have been so ineffective in the House.
The Prime Minister: Of course, it is right that the real issue between the Executive and Parliament is how we bring power closer to people. That is why we have made the constitutional changes. That is why we are allowing greater local democracy. That is why we have reintroduced democracy to London.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney, North and Stoke Newington): My right hon. Friend mentioned devolution of power to Wales and Scotland. He should also mention the welcome devolution of power to the people of London and the election, for the very first time, of the people's choice as the new mayor of London.
The Prime Minister: He was indeed the choice of the people, though not my choice. However, the point that my hon. Friend makes is surely right. It was the Conservative party that abolished the Greater London council and took away the rights of Londoners--[Interruption.] Is not that more important than all the piddling points raised by the Leader of the Opposition? When it comes to the real issues, it is not about who appoints the Select Committee Chairmen or whether we turn up for two slots of 20 minutes or one of half an hour. It is about restoring democracy to this country and getting power back to people.
In Scotland, for a hundred years people have wanted a devolved Scottish Parliament. This party, in government, has delivered it. For a hundred years people have wanted a devolved Executive in Northern Ireland that is genuinely representative of all communities. We have delivered it. We gave people the choice in a referendum to make their decision and they decided for devolution, so that is what we did. Freedom of information has been introduced for the first time by this Government.
Madam Speaker, when we look--[Hon. Members: "It is Mr. Deputy Speaker."] Well, at least I am consistent, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
In truth, the issue of Parliament and the Executive is a serious one. However, when we boil down the recommendations that the Leader of the Opposition is prepared to accept from his committee, there is the one on Select Committees and the proposal for two Prime Minister's Questions, not one. That is the sum total. We have been brought here today for this extraordinary exhibition of eccentricity on the part of the Leader of the Opposition just for those two things. Why has he done that? Because every time we come to a serious issue of policy, he falls flat on his face.
In the past few days, the Leader of the Opposition's entire economic policy has collapsed under the weight of its own contradictions. His national health service policy collapsed 10 days before. His education policy would be a disaster for this country if it were ever introduced. The truth of the matter is that on not a single, serious policy question has he a serious thing to say. He is incapable once we get to the big policy questions. Madam Speaker, what is--[Hon. Members: "It is Mr. Deputy Speaker."] I will get it right eventually.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, what is the real problem that we have in holding the Government to account? In order to hold the Government to account, we need a
Government--well, we have got one--and we need a serious Opposition. We do not have one of those. The Opposition's real complaint about holding us to account is that they are so useless, weak and feeble that in three years they have not been able to impress themselves on anybody. It could have been a serious debate but it was not, because the right hon. Gentleman has nothing serious to say.2.50 pm
Mr. Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Inverness, West) rose--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am sorry for having been the source of such difficulty.
Mr. Kennedy: I am sure that the entire House welcomes the fact that we have made such consensual progress over the past hour to reform and improve our parliamentary systems and the role of the Executive and its relationship to Parliament as a whole. This morning, when I was leaving home and thinking about the debate, I wondered whether any practical good would come of it. I am surprised only that I even asked myself that question.
Mr. Mackinlay: We have the promise of a free vote on the Liaison Committee's report. That is now locked in.
Mr. Kennedy: Somebody is happy. That may be because the hon. Gentleman is used to being in a minority from time to time.
The difficulty is the motion. There are many good, worthy and interesting things that we need to talk and think about. The problem is that the previous Conservative Government latterly were a lousy Executive. Subsequently, the Conservatives have been a lousy Opposition. On both counts, it is difficult to take seriously any prescriptions or prognoses that they put forward relating to how we might want to improve or develop our proceedings in a more meaningful way, and they had better be more meaningful for us all.
The Prime Minister is correct when he talks about a bigger picture. There is a much more profound picture for each and every political party in this place. It is that fewer people are joining political parties and fewer are becoming involved in the business of politics. Each year, 2 million people voluntarily take out or renew membership of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, and that is a greater number than the entire membership of every British political party put together and multiplied by some.
When we look in the mirror as a Parliament, we should consider our working practices and procedures in terms of their relevance to the outside world. Having listened to the exchanges so far, I feel that most people, if they had not already switched channels having tuned in to the debate, would be unable to comprehend what Parliament was talking about. That is the perspective from which we should be approaching these important issues, which have been dealt with so superficially by the Conservative party.
Mr. Nick St. Aubyn (Guildford): When the right hon. Gentleman talks about lousy opposition, will he confirm
that his view of good opposition is a party that strives at every opportunity to agree with the Government in the hope of obtaining favours from them in future?
Mr. Kennedy: The hon. Gentleman might care to consider the wholehearted support that the Liberal Democrats gave to the Labour party in Cardiff a few months ago, which led to the ousting of the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael), and many other things too. He might like to reflect upon the fact that week on week, if we look for questions to the Prime Minister as opposed to assertions--the right hon. Gentleman should be properly held to account on the public policy of the day--I think that he gets a damned sight more from Liberal Democrat Members than from Conservative Members.
Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) rose--
Mr. Kennedy: I will finish my point. I am sure that the hon. Lady would not want me prematurely to curtail my kind comments about the Conservative party.
It is difficult to take Conservative Members seriously when they are still prepared to subscribe to an element of the hereditary principle in another place. I do not understand how they can have credibility on parliamentary reform if they are willing to subscribe to that. They were in office for 18 years, during which the Hansard Society for Parliamentary Government--a worthy society that commands all-party endorsement--made recommendations about the reform of the House. Many of us in all parties called for a debate, and strangely the Conservative Government could not find time for one. The Opposition contribution today has to be put in that historical context.
Dr. Starkey: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. May I take him back to his remarks about the representative nature of this Parliament and turning a mirror on ourselves? I invite him to turn round and look at hon. Members on the Liberal Democrat Benches to see how representative they are of the population when their gender is uniformly male. Is he considering doing something about that?
Mr. Kennedy: I think that at least four of my colleagues might profoundly disagree with that assessment, but the hon. Lady is correct and I am happy to repeat here what I have repeated ad infinitum on party platforms throughout the country: if any political party or Parliament is to be representative of the country, far more women have to be elected. That is a problem for the Liberal Democrats and I am endeavouring to deal with it. Any help that the hon. Lady could give would be most welcome. If she wants to swell the number of women in the Liberal Democrat parliamentary party, we have space on these Benches and would be happy for her to cross the Floor of the House.
Obviously, the Labour party has embarked on significant and historic constitutional reform in the past three years. We openly and enthusiastically subscribe to much of that reform. We have had our differences. For example, the system of proportional representation adopted for the European elections was not one that we
would have chosen, we would have given the Welsh Assembly more legislative power, and we would have given more fiscal autonomy to the Scottish Parliament. However, at least compared with what went on before, we are on a rolling programme of reform, which has to be welcome.This debate offers a welcome opportunity, because there is so much more to do--real reform of the House of Commons and the completion of the reform of the House of Lords. With such a big majority--and with so much power and patronage at the disposal of any modern day Prime Minister--the Government must themselves check that Parliament is not being undermined and that the House is not being taken for granted.
The Liberal Democrats recommend that we move to a fixed-term system of four-year Parliaments. Surely that would rid us of the most ludicrous tradition of the lot: the fact that the person who will lead the team when the race for a general election starts is also the person who holds the starting pistol and decides when to pull the trigger. Short of a Government losing the confidence of a majority in the House, a partisan party leader should not decide when the country goes to the polls. A four-year, fixed term would be best.
Secondly, far too many people are on the payroll in the House. The Government are too big. There are too many parliamentary private secretaries and too many people are beholden to the Executive interests of the day. Not enough Members feel free to express independent interests from a Back-Bench point of view. It is telling that there is a genuinely held respect and affection in this place for individuals in all parties, some of whom are described by the press as "maverick", some of whom are called "independently minded" and some "troublemakers". The truth is that we all know that most Members do not have either the guts or the opportunity to be like that because those who sit on the Treasury Bench and who control the Executive have far more power than is healthy for the House.
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