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4.21 pm
Mr. John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West): In the 17 years I have been a Member of Parliament, I have seen a progressive reduction in the power of Back Benchers to influence what happens here, not just in the Chamber but throughout the House. I include the way in which the House is run, our procedures and the way that Government power has progressively increased. That disturbs me.
I sympathise with many of the objectives of the Modernisation Committee. I entered the House when my children were at primary school and, to a large extent,
being here stopped me seeing much of their growing up into young adults. I have seen the pressure that my being a Member of Parliament put on my family and on my wife in particular. If we can do something to improve that situation, it should be done. As the hon. Member for Milton Keynes, South-West (Dr. Starkey) said, that will encourage a wider section of the population to view coming here as a realistic possibility.The problem with some of the Modernisation Committee's proposals is that the Committee does not realise the impact that they would have on the Opposition or the way in which they would limit the Opposition's power to call the Executive to account. I agree that voting at 3 o'clock in the morning is not very desirable. It does not happen much nowadays, but it used to happen far more often a few years ago. To the extent that it does happen, it does not improve the quality of debate or of decision making. It is true that the power of the Opposition to delay and even frustrate Members on the Government Benches is a powerful weapon and can be used to wring concessions from a reluctant Government. If it is to be removed--there are good arguments for timetabling--it must be replaced with something more effective than what the Modernisation Committee has suggested.
I also have grave reservations about the idea of holding votes that have not taken place after 10 o'clock in the evening on the following Wednesday. I know that it is done in the Dutch Parliament, but important issues should be the subject of proper debate and should be voted on by people who have taken part in the debate. As one of my hon. Friends pointed out earlier, we could have a situation in which some of those voting had no experience of what happened in the debate and some of those who took part in the debate were unable to vote because of other commitments. That is unsatisfactory, and I hope that the Committee will reconsider that proposal.
There are severe problems in that Back Benchers do not control this place and that the House does not control its own affairs. Significant improvements need to be made for the benefit of all who serve here. Many of the suggestions that have come forward are good ones, including many from the Modernisation Committee. The Liaison Committee's recommendations about the selection of members of Select Committees and increasing the powers of those Committees are important, but I do not think that they go far enough.
One of the problems is that only one Member in any particular office is elected, and that is the Speaker. Madam Speaker has been an inspiration to us all, but more holders of the great offices of the House should be truly democratically elected if we are to take control of our own affairs once again.
There will always be the need for political parties to have influence in the way in which the House is run. However, it is not a good idea to have all members of a Select Committee effectively appointed through their respective Whips' Offices. Membership of the Chairmen's Panel, on which I have the honour to serve, and your own position, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is gained effectively
through the nomination process. That is not a good idea. We should have a Committee of Selection that genuinely selects Members on the basis of their expertise, their talent and the contribution that they can bring to bear in the positions in which they are placed. Therefore, we need a new form of Committee of Selection.
Mr. MacShane: I shall make a brief intervention because I hope to speak later in the debate. A Committee of Selection will have a majority and a minority. Presumably, the majority will be composed of Government Members. The hon. Gentleman will not get away from that problem. Is he aware that Select Committees, which are supposed to be stuffed with Government placemen, bring fear and terror to the hearts of many Departments? When their reports come out, most Ministers seem to have been kissed by a cobra. If Select Committees are stuffed with placemen, how do they cause so much trouble?
Mr. Butterfill: I am not suggesting that they are stuffed with placemen. I know from my own experience that many members of Select Committees behave extremely well and are active in calling Ministers to account. I am saying that we have lost control of the levers of power in this place. We need to rebalance the power between the Executive and the House.
Mr. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Butterfill: No. I ask the hon. Gentleman to forgive me. There is a limited time for debate.
We need to regain the balance. It is wrong that the Government control what is legislated upon, the timing of it and the procedure. The House should be deciding on procedure. In an appropriate Committee, the House should be deciding what is a reasonable amount of time to allocate. The House must take control of its own proceedings.
It is intolerable that either the Government or the usual channels have such great power in this place. It is vital, therefore, that we consider again the way in which we are run. It is important that we take on board the recommendations of the Liaison Committee and the Norton report. Ideally, it is important that the Government initiate a debate and a programme of change that will give back to hon. Members power over the proceedings of Parliament.
Mrs. Beckett: The hon. Gentleman talks about giving back powers to the House. He has proposed that the Government should not control the legislative programme, should not appoint Members to Select Committees and, if I understood him correctly, should not be the final arbiter on any of the matters that the Government now control in the House. He talks about going back to a certain time. Will he tell me of a time when any Government of whatever party have not had such powers?
Mr. Butterfill: The right hon. Lady makes a powerful point, but she will know that that is the situation in other legislatures. Perhaps I was wrong to talk about giving back. Perhaps giving to the House would be a better phrase.
4.29 pm
Mr. Derek Twigg (Halton): I have never heard such a load of claptrap from the Opposition as I have heard today. The thought that the Conservative party has suddenly become the upholder of democracy and is to improve it, given the Conservatives 18 years in power, is unbelievable. The performance of the Leader of the Opposition was somewhat lacking, and that is being as kind as I can.
Mr. St. Aubyn: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Twigg: I have only just started and will carry on for a while.
It was difficult to spot the substance of the Leader of the Opposition's speech. Interestingly, an article in The Daily Telegraph earlier this week stated that the right hon. Gentleman said that
- in principle, he agreed with the analysis
Today, we have heard so much hypocrisy from the Tories, but less than half of the parliamentary party was here when the debate started. If it is such a crucial issue for them, why were they not all here? Why did they all disappear as soon as William Hague went home? It is such an important issue for democracy--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must remember to call other hon. Members by their correct titles.
Mr. Twigg: The Leader of the Opposition went and Conservative Members disappeared. If the matter is so important, why did they do that? Really, this is about playing politics; it is not a serious debate.
Mr. St. Aubyn: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
At Trade and Industry questions this morning, no more than 10 Conservative Back Benchers were present. I am not even sure that most of them tried to ask a question. If that is parliamentary scrutiny, it backs up my argument that the Tories are not interested--it is all about making political points.
I will be happy to give way to the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. St. Aubyn) now.
Mr. St. Aubyn: Would the hon. Gentleman remind the House which party was in power when the Select Committee system was introduced? Does he support the principle of that system of Select Committees scrutinising the role of the Executive?
Mr. Twigg: I want to talk about Select Committees for a minute. Would the hon. Gentleman have supported the decision to get rid of the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) as the Chairman of the Select Committee on Health? Clearly, that was done by the previous Government's Whips. If that is the way in which the Conservative party wants to do it, that is fine, but I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman would have supported that move had he been here. I did not hear many
Conservatives say what a terrible thing it was at the time. If that is the way that the Conservative party operates, it brings me back to my main point that this is not a serious debate about democracy; it is about political point scoring.
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