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4.57 pm
Mr. Andrew Rowe (Faversham and Mid-Kent): I hope that the hon. Member for Bury, South (Mr. Lewis) will be rewarded by the Whips, even if after receiving that reward his capacity to act as a 24-hour-a-day social worker in his constituency is diminished, because a speech of such egregious loyalty deserves its reward.
Mr. Ivan Lewis: By speaking in such a patronising and arrogant way about Members' role in their constituencies being that of 24-hour-a-day social workers, the hon. Gentleman has demonstrated why Conservative Members are sitting where they are and we are sitting on the Government Benches.
Mr. Rowe: If the hon. Gentleman knew my record well, he would know that I devote a great deal of my time in my constituency to exactly such causes. I would not, however, claim that every minute of every hour of every day was dedicated to that function.
I share with my right hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major) two characteristics. First, I am sorry that the debate got off to such a partisan start. The issues in it are much more important than partisan politics. The other thing that I share with my right hon. Friend is that I, too, am retiring at the next election. There the comparison ends--my career cannot really be said to compare with his in any meaningful way.
I think that we do ourselves no good by continuing with a rhetoric that is entirely meaningless and can confuse the public. For example, right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House have referred this afternoon to how many people are in the Chamber at any given time. Considering the enormous variety of occupations that Members of Parliament have--working in their constituencies, serving on Select Committees or serving on Standing Committees--we all know that the number of Members present in the Chamber for long periods is meaningless, and I am sorry that we bandy this insult about.
Mr. MacShane: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Rowe: No, I think not, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me.
The sadness is that there is a kind of Gresham's law of politics: bad politics drives out good. Whatever a Government's bad behaviour, the Opposition will elaborate on it when they get into power. That is one reason why we are in such a mess.
Mr. David Taylor: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Rowe: I will give way once more, and then I will not give way again.
Mr. Taylor: Notwithstanding the fact that it is widely accepted by right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House that presence in the Chamber is not a particularly good measure of activity or quality, is it not astonishing that on an Opposition day of this kind, only 8 per cent. of the 165 Conservative Members of Parliament can be bothered to be present at this point?
Mr. Rowe: I do not think that that is any more relevant than the many occasions on which one might expect members of the governing party to be present and they are not.
Being a Member of Parliament is an extraordinary job. It is, I think, the only job left in the United Kingdom for which no qualifications of any description are required. There is a huge and diverse variety of activities open to a Member of Parliament on first coming here, and many people become engulfed. They may take up the chairmanship of outside groups--for sustainable waste management, for example--or may be the spokesman for various charities, which they do out of the best motives.
Back Benchers do not organise themselves, either in their own parties or across the House, when it comes to calling the Government to account. Governments take advantage of that, of course, and as they organise the business of the House, they load people whom they believe may be difficult with the kind of occupations that make it harder for them to be difficult. In that way, we do ourselves no good.
I share the sentiment that we have more power to call the Government to account than we make use of. I am a fine one to talk, because in my career here I have had far too many outside activities--not, I have to say, registrable activities--and have not played as great a role as I should have done in calling Governments to account.
We also have a media-driven obsession with immediacy of reaction. Most of the issues on which Governments need to be called to account are slow burning, such as whether they are delivering the programme they promised; spending the money they were voted; or administering effectively and properly the organisations for which they are responsible. However, we have become obsessed with the idea that if something is said on "Today" and announced to the House later in the day, it gets the press coverage for that day and there is no point in following it up further. The Select Committees, on the other hand, choose a small number of subjects each year and go into them in detail. I believe that Back Benchers should get together in small groups to follow through various elements of Government expenditure and administration and pursue them in depth.
Mrs. Beckett: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point; we do not use the powers that we have. Does he share my reservations about the proposal in the Liaison Committee report, and echoed by Norton, that there should be a half-hour debate soon after a Select Committee report is published? There is perhaps less worth in an off-the-cuff reaction--especially to a serious report--than there would be in a more measured response.
Mr. Rowe: I take the right hon. Lady's point. However, there is something to be said for allowing Select Committees to present their reports on the Floor of the House where there could be 10 minutes or so of interchange, rather than issuing them at a press conference. That would be a better way to proceed. If Select Committees have to present their reports to the media instead of on the Floor of the House, we subscribe to our own annoyance when we complain that announcements are made in that way.
We need to consider the working of our party organisations. They make it harder for individual Back Benchers to stand out against their party. An excessive belief has grown up that any form of disagreement is disloyalty. That is wholly wrong. The use of such processes as reselection procedures in constituencies has an enervating effect. I should be sorry if that went any further.
Governments have not helped. Earlier, there was some discussion of whether this is a grown-up Parliament. In many cases, Governments are not grown-up either. They carry to extreme their obsession with not giving way on even one amendment in a raft of legislation that is often complex--whether important or trivial. Members of Standing Committees are constantly made to feel less effective because of the Government's resolute determination not to pay attention to an amendment. That is not grown-up. The public does not think that it is grown-up either. They know perfectly well that we deal with complex and difficult issues; if we disagreed with our party over those issues, people would not shriek, "Ooh, there you are--they're all disloyal."
There has been much talk about using the internet and IT to collect information, opinions and so on. I hope that when the UK Youth Parliament is established, we shall
make great use of those technologies. However, the difference between us and everyone else is that, at some point, our decision must be recorded. The man in the pub can change his mind three times in an evening and put his views on the internet. Our decisions are recorded. That means that, despite the internet, this place will remain important.5.8 pm
Gillian Merron (Lincoln): The quality of our democracy can only be as good as the effectiveness of the Opposition. The Opposition's interesting choice to use five hours of valuable parliamentary time for a debate on this subject is emphasising their shortcomings in effectively holding the Government to account.
The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) made a key observation about the content of the parliamentary day with which I agree. He said that the House should apply itself to matters that concern people in their everyday life. I agree that the relationship between Parliament and the Executive must enable that to happen. However, we have to get real. We need to examine how the current arrangements and facilities are used by the Opposition; they already have a number of parliamentary means at their disposal.
Like several of my colleagues, I have looked into the use of Opposition days and how the realities of life outside the House are reflected in their consideration in this place. As we have already heard, there has not been a Tory Opposition day debate on the economy, the new deal or employment. There has not been a Tory Opposition day debate on the economy since November 1998. I wonder why that is.
The official unemployment figures that were published yesterday show that, since the election, unemployment in Lincoln is down by nearly a half and long-term unemployment is down by nearly three quarters. On these issues--the economy, employment and the new deal--there are strong feelings on both sides, and there is clear water between us.
Mr. Bercow: The hon. Lady is simply factually incorrect. Is she unaware of the Opposition day debate on the new deal that was held under the auspices of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) and my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Green)? That is on the record, so she ought to know about it.
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