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Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North): Earlier, my right hon. Friend rather flippantly passed over the criticisms of the Bill that have been received from Liberty. Should he not take seriously the fact that Liberty--the former National Council for Civil Liberties--has deep misgivings about the Bill and the powers within it, and particularly deep misgivings about the powers of the police to take people's passports away, thus putting the police in the position of being both prosecutor and executor of the law? Does he not think that Liberty's objections alone are enough for him to stop in his tracks and look to some other means of campaigning against racist violence at football matches?
Mr. Straw: I was not in the least flippant in respect of Liberty, but Liberty has one view of the matter. Liberty typically takes this view; it did so over anti-social
behaviour orders which, Liberty suggested, would be completely outwith the European convention on human rights. There is no evidence whatever to support that case.The House faces a choice. We have been through a series of proposals and measures to seek to control this kind of terrible disorder and violence which is perpetrated by so-called English fans. The simple fact of the matter is that, so far, the current arrangements have worked in part, but they palpably have not worked in full. We have a choice; if we do nothing, we can--I apologise to the Opposition for using this word--guarantee that such problems will continue in the future, whatever co-operation we seek with the police services abroad. We must act proportionately, justly and within the European convention. As I will explain, I believe that we are doing that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) knows that we cannot have our policy determined by one particular organisation. That would be risible in the extreme.
Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield): The Home Secretary has accepted that it is likely that a substantial number of people deported from Belgium after the last football match violence were completely innocent. How does he reconcile that with the provision in new section 14C under which magistrates can rely, or may rely, on any decision of a public authority, whether in the United Kingdom or elsewhere? That must mean that a person who has been deported--possibly arbitrarily and wrongly--will thereafter have a taint that will be taken into account by the magistrates court in deciding on future banning orders.
Mr. Straw: I remind the hon. Gentleman that the phrase is not that the court has to take account of this, but that it may. He knows that the courts are well able to weigh evidence; that is what they are there for. In this case, they are weighing up whether the person has caused or contributed to violence or disorder in the UK or elsewhere.
Proposed section 14C defines violence and provides examples of behaviour constituting disorder. The examples given are not new, and reflect current public disorder criteria as contained in the Public Order Act 1986. As the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) said, the Bill also sets out matters that the court may take into account in deciding whether or not to impose a banning order. These include: convictions for violence against persons or property, including threatening violence and doing anything to endanger the life of a person; convictions for disorder, including, importantly, stirring up hatred against persons on the basis of their colour, race, nationality, or ethnic or national origins; any relevant convictions received outside England and Wales; any decision of a public authority; deportation or exclusion from a country outside the UK: removal or exclusion from football stadiums here or elsewhere; and conduct recorded on video or by any other means--for example, documentary evidence of involvement in football-related violence or disorder, such as film of the street brawling in Copenhagen.
In the real world, no police officer would make an application to the court for a banning order where the only evidence was that someone had been arrested during
arrests that were indiscriminate in any event and where the police chief concerned had said that many of those arrested were innocent. However, there may be occasions where the evidence before the court includes a string of other evidence and the fact that, on another occasion, the individual concerned had been arrested, detained and released without charge by the court.In those circumstances, it is reasonable to include those criteria. If there are positive suggestions about the way in which we can better amend the Bill, I am happy to talk to hon. Members outside and inside the House, as my hon. Friends and I have done repeatedly over the past 10 days.
For the measures to impact in a short time, it is vital for the magistrates courts to take account of conduct or convictions inside or outside the UK, whether the relevant behaviour took place before or after the Bill becomes law. Orders will be made under civil law to ensure that all available evidence can be used, but breaching the order would be a criminal offence. In this regard, the order is similar in construction to the anti-social behaviour order.
Ms Claire Ward (Watford): What decisions of a public authority does my right hon. Friend envisage being taken into account by a magistrates court?
Mr. Straw: They could be decisions by the banning authority, or other similar decisions. Again, if my hon. Friend and the House are concerned, we can provide more information. If we can seek to amend the proposal, we shall do so.
Mr. James Clappison (Hertsmere): The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) made was important. The Home Secretary said that other evidence of disorder will be required besides the fact that the person has been deported. How can a person who has been deported in those circumstances--when innocent of an offence--establish that, when all the events have taken place overseas?
Mr. Straw: First, we do not intend to make public the list of those arrested in Belgium in any event. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman knows enough about the law to know that it is for the police officer making an application to establish the case, not the respondent to the application. Although the process takes place within the civil jurisdiction of the magistrates court, the standard of proof that is imposed on civil jurisdiction cases such as this is relatively high--and quite properly so.
The court has to decide whether the evidence is admissible and accurate and then has to use that evidence to make a judgment on whether the first condition of new section 14B has been fulfilled: that the person concerned has
- caused or contributed to any violence and disorder in the United Kingdom or elsewhere.
Wherever they can, I believe that the police will want to apply for these orders well in advance of a particular fixture in order to prevent suspected hooligans from even setting out for the game. Inevitably, however, there will be people who will not have come to the notice of the
police until they reach the port of embarkation. During Euro 2000, there were a number of examples of people travelling to Belgium without tickets who had previous convictions for violent offences. The police had no powers to prevent such individuals from leaving the country and although they were able to pass such information on to authorities abroad, no action was taken by them.New section 21B empowers a police officer to issue a notice requiring a person to appear before a magistrates court for a banning order to be considered and to prevent him or her from leaving the country in the meantime.
The power will be available only when matches outside England and Wales are due to be played, and for overseas games when the control period is operating. The officer needs to believe that the person has at any time caused or contributed to any violence or disorder in the United Kingdom or elsewhere, or that the behaviour, not the appearance, of the person is such that immediate inquiries need to be made to determine whether or not that condition is met. The Bill is explicit. If authorised by a police officer of the rank of inspector or above, the person may be issued with a notice to appear before a magistrates court within 24 hours and not to leave England and Wales in the meantime; and they may be required, if necessary, to surrender their passport.
One of the proposals made by Lord Ackner during the meeting that I held on Monday was that the draft Bill should be amended to make it clear that the police officer had to spell out the reasons for the direction in writing at the time the direction was given. I have included that in the Bill. However, the Bill has also been revised to draw a distinction between being detained to make immediate inquiries and being issued with a notice effectively commencing a banning order by the complaint process.
In the aftermath of Charleroi, there were many demands, in some cases from surprising quarters, that we should replicate the powers that the German police had taken to turn back people at the borders without any further process. That power is not consistent with our tradition of policing or our respect for the rule of law, and it is not in the Bill. Instead, we are providing that where the police believe there are grounds for obtaining a banning order against an individual, they can, but only for a matter of hours, stop that person leaving the country so that they can take them to court. It is then for the court to determine whether a banning order should be made.
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