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Mr. Efford: The second cousin may only have drunk some Scotch.
Dr. Ladyman: Exactly. The question I have to ask myself is: if someone claims to have Scottish relatives, does he get away with it? Can he be a Scottish football hooligan and therefore not be covered by the English and Welsh legislation? We need to clarify that.
Types of behaviour are covered by the Bill. New section 14C(2)(b) in schedule 1 refers to "insulting words." I remember as a kid singing a song to the tune of "Bread of Heaven" at football grounds. It went:
- Man United, Man United, Man United are no good.
Additionally, although singing that song at the Liverpool end of a football ground might be regarded as unsporting, it would not be regarded as insulting. However, if one sang it in a public house full of Manchester United supporters, one probably would be inciting a breach of the peace. I ask my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to consider whether the legislation should be amended to require magistrates to consider the
context of the act. It would be legitimate to remove a passport if a person had intended to incite a breach of the peace.I ask my right hon. Friend to take into account one other matter in our later consideration of the Bill. The European club championship campaigns starts in September and continues until May. Of course I hope that many of our clubs will get into the finals. However, will those who are subject to banning orders have to hand in their passports in September and not regain them until May, when the competition has finished, or will they have to hand in their passport each time their club plays in a match? Does the legislation clearly state how the provision will operate?
Mr. Efford: One of the possible ways round that problem--and the problem of people travelling from Scotland or from another embarkation point not covered by the legislation--is to require people subject to orders to attend a police station when the game is being held. That, rather than concentrating on passports, might solve some of those problems.
Dr. Ladyman: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is one of the remedies that we might consider.
Having expressed those practical concerns about the legislation's operation and asked my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to ensure that those issues are addressed later in the Bill's passage, I have to say that I fully support the Bill's principle and what we are trying to achieve. I hope that all hon. Members, even at this late hour, will support the Bill on Second Reading.
11.32 pm
Mr. Simon Burns (West Chelmsford): This is the eighth piece of legislation on this subject that the House has considered in the past 15 years. I share the view of my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe) that it would be utterly wrong for such controversial legislation to be rushed through Parliament in one day. I therefore welcome the fact that we shall have two days in which to discuss the Bill. If we can also have next Wednesday to consider it, so much the better.
Since the Bill was published, the Home Secretary and the Minister of State have been more than prepared to meet hon. Members and Members of another place. They have also been prepared to listen and to change the draft Bill--for the better, I think.
The Home Secretary was absolutely right to say that the issues that this legislation has to address are different from the issues addressed by relevant previous legislation. Although the common thread in all the legislation is to deal with football hooliganism--which, sadly, has for too long been a problem for our country and our national sport--as the right hon. Gentleman said, that problem has effectively shifted from domestic matches primarily to overseas international matches.
The figures show how the problem has shifted. Up to a point, that shift is a measure of the cumulative effect and success of previous legislation. As hon. Members will know, between 1992-93 and 1998-99 attendance at football matches has increased from 20.6 million to
25.25 million. At the same time, arrests in this country have declined from 4,588 to 3,341--a reduction of about 28 per cent. in seven years. That is significant, but, as I said earlier, the problem has shifted overseas and it has shifted with a vengeance.I would have preferred legislation to be introduced at the beginning of the Session so that it could be taken through both Houses in a more conventional way, but, as that did not happen, there is no point in my wasting the time of the House reliving that battle. It is now important that we have legislation that is relevant to the problems facing the game of football and law and order in this country. We must make sure not only that it is relevant, but that it is workable, and properly, decently and correctly drafted.
I fully accept and support the measures proposed by the Home Secretary to merge international and domestic banning orders. I also strongly support the provisions that if someone is convicted of a football-related offence, the courts will be expected to impose a banning order on that individual in addition to the punishment for the offence that they have committed unless there are exceptional circumstances.
Since the Football (Offences and Disorder) Act 1999, the courts have not carried through the wishes of Parliament. Although we do not have the figures for the number of convictions under the 1999 Act since 26 September last year, since that period there have been 36 international banning orders and 255 domestic banning orders. The obscene variation between the two figures shows that the anecdotal evidence that has been bandied about during the past two weeks is fully justified. When we have the figure showing the number of convictions since September, it will more than bear out the anecdotal evidence. The Home Secretary certainly needed to take action to deal with the reluctance of the courts and I warmly welcome his initiative in the Bill.
I also welcome the fact that banning orders will be extended to people who have been convicted of crimes that are not football related. That is an important measure. The fact that an individual has a conviction for an act of violence or disorder shows that they have a propensity for such acts and that there is a likelihood that they could reoffend in future, particularly in a football environment where there is a propensity for hooliganism and violence among a small minority of people who follow the game. They are not necessarily supporters, but follow the game as leeches in order to carry on their own agendas, which may involve drug dealing, counterfeit tickets and other offences.
I also welcome the Home Secretary's proposals to allow the courts to impose the withdrawal of passports for a control period of five days for a designated match for unconvicted individuals if the courts are satisfied that if those people travel abroad, they will commit acts of violence or hooliganism. The Home Secretary knows that I dearly wanted to include such a provision in my Bill last year. For a variety of reasons, I concluded that it was not something that a private Member could get through Parliament, and that the Government should use their majority to that end.
I share one concern that various hon. Members have expressed already, and it centres on proposed new section 21(A). I do not disagree with the principle of what the Home Secretary wants to do, but I am worried about the
practicalities of making the Bill's provisions work. I am also uneasy that someone could be detained for up to 24 hours. If magistrates are made available at ports and airports, people will be able to have access to a court very quickly. That may not amount to what one hon. Member called a "port in a court", but it would aid better natural justice.The Home Secretary has already built safeguards into the Bill, such as the sunset clause and an annual review along the lines of the similar provision in the prevention of terrorism provisions. I hope that he will think again over the weekend and see whether, without compromising the basic principle behind what he seeks to do, he can improve the delivery of the measures in the Bill.
Finally, I turn to the question of civil liberties, which Parliament has a duty to defend and protect. I would be less than candid if I did not admit that I am beginning to tire of hearing constantly about the civil liberties of the minority and of never hearing about the civil liberties of the vast majority of law-abiding football fans. Such people only want to go to football matches with their families and children for entertainment in the afternoon or evening, free of threatening behaviour or actual violence.
We cannot disregard or disdain the civil liberties of the minority, but, just for once, I hope that we can pay attention to the civil liberties of the majority. For too long, they have been forgotten and placed second to the interests of the minority.
Another complaint in society is that the state too often bends over backwards to justify the perpetrators of crime, or to reduce the blame attached to them at the expense of victims. I think that the House agrees that more attention should be given to helping victims of crime. The same principle should be applied to the civil liberties of the majority of law-abiding and decent citizens.
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