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Dr. Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak): What possible reasonable grounds might a constable have for believing that somebody had
- caused or contributed to any violence . . . ?
The inclusion of "reasonable grounds" aims to dispel any lingering notion that the measure could be used to detain and issue a notice to people solely on their appearance or on the basis of meagre evidence. The constable is effectively required to ask himself the same question as the magistrate and consider whether the evidence would justify a banning order before issuing a notice.
Government amendment No. 43 responds to concerns about the maximum period of detention for further inquiries as originally drafted. Originally, there would have been 24 hours, either for inquiry or for process to the court, or both. It would not have been possible for someone to be detained for more than 24 hours overall.
I accept the concerns that have been expressed, and I am satisfied--and so, more importantly, are the police--that four hours, or six if authorisation is received from an inspector or above, is sufficient time to enable the constable to make his inquiries. At the very latest, a decision on whether to issue a notice will have to be made on the evidence before the constable when the period expires. I feel that that strikes an acceptable balance between the rights of the individual and the operational imperatives on the police in the necessary effort to combat hooliganism.
Government amendment No. 44 is consequential on the foregoing two amendments. Government amendment No. 45 further tightens up the procedures. There will now be a requirement on the constable to state the grounds for issuing a notice directing someone not to leave the country and to appear before a magistrates court.
The additional safeguards that the Government amendments put in place should go a long way to reassuring those who have been concerned about the powers granted to the police that they are no more than is required in order to tackle the problem of hooliganism effectively. They are no more than is needed to ensure that, when there are reasonable grounds for believing that a banning order should be made, the individuals can be got to court quickly so that the court can make the decision.
We cannot accept amendments Nos. 20 and 21, as they would entirely remove the measure that empowers a constable to issue a notice. Similarly, we cannot accept amendment No. 28, which would remove the power to detain to make immediate inquiries to ascertain whether a person has
- at any time . . . caused or contributed to any violence or disorder in the United Kingdom or elsewhere.
Amendments Nos. 9 and 11 are not acceptable because operational practicalities are such that an inspector may well be the senior officer present at the scene. Authorisations for many parts of PACE used always to be given at the level of superintendent or above. As a result of a process that began under the previous Administration, with our support, of providing greater empowerment to ranks lower down, some of the powers are now authorised
at the level of inspector. My recollection is that we made proposals to extend authorisations at inspector level as amendments to PACE in the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, and I believe that those amendments carried the support of the whole House.Inspectors are senior and experienced police officers, well used to making difficult decisions, and I think it wholly appropriate that they should be able to authorise the use of this new power. Those who are worried about some continental police practices should bear it in mind that all these powers take place in the context of strong powers--to be made stronger in due course, when we fulfil our commitment to introduce firmer arrangements--that already exist in the Police Complaints Authority to investigate complaints against the police.
Miss Ann Widdecombe (Maidstone and The Weald): What about amendment No. 9?
Mr. Straw: I will come back to that in a moment.
Amendments Nos. 33, 34 and 38 are superseded by Government amendments reducing the maximum period of detention, and I hope that they will not be pressed to a vote.
Amendment No. 35 is designed to ensure that the police are unable to detain a person on more than one occasion in 48 hours and to limit the maximum aggregate period of detention in any seven-day period. I am not sure that the first limb is helpful. The second is unnecessary in the light of the Government amendment restricting detention periods to a maximum of four hours.
Providing that someone shall not be detained more than once in 48 hours has the following consequence: if someone is detained and then released and a direction not to leave the country is issued, and that person seeks to breach the direction and leave the country from another port, it becomes illegal for officers at that port to detain him while inquiries are made. That would not be a sensible outcome.
I understand that amendment No. 35 is designed to ensure that the power is not used oppressively. I am certainly ready to consider the matter further, and if I conclude that a serious mischief has been left undealt with, we will arrange for suitable amendments to be introduced in another place.
Amendment No. 36, as it relates to authorisation of an extended period of detention, is superseded by Government amendment No. 43. I hope that that will be accepted.
Amendment No. 37 is not strictly necessary. It is a long-established requirement of English law that reasons for detention must be given. However, I am content to accept this additional safeguard and agree to the amendment, so we will have belt and braces.
Amendment No. 9--[Hon. Members: "Ah! He has found it."] Like a genie out of a bottle. I have suddenly remembered the answer. Luckily, I can read my handwriting for once. The amendment would require a magistrate's warrant before a notice could be issued. That is simply impractical. The Bill is designed to get the person before the court as soon as possible.
Mr. Nick Hawkins (Surrey Heath) indicated dissent.
Mr. Straw: That is how we read the amendment, even if the hon. Gentleman thinks otherwise.
Amendment No. 39 deals with compensation. I accept that the Bill would be improved by explicit provisions on compensation, going beyond the provisions of common law, and we are currently preparing an amendment on the subject to be introduced in another place. Among the matters to be covered that are not covered by amendment No. 39 are the maximum amount and the possibility of appeal against refusal to grant compensation. I spent 18 years in opposition and I well recognise the difficulties of drafting amendments, so I make no complaint about the amendment. It raises an important principle, but I hope that in the light of what I have said the right hon. Lady will withdraw it.
I have spoken as briefly as I can to cover the ground and I hope that hon. Members on both sides will accept that we have gone a long way to meet the spirit and, in some cases, the letter of the amendments that have been tabled, except those that simply seek to remove a major, operative part of the Bill, which we cannot accept.
8 pm
Miss Widdecombe: This is an important group of amendments, many of which go to the heart of the doubts and queries that right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have about the Bill. So important is this group of amendments that I regret that we were obliged to spend more than two hours debating a completely unnecessary guillotine motion: that time would have been much better spent debating the merits of the Bill's various clauses.
It is true that both my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and I--not to mention other right hon. and hon. Friends--have called for some time for measures to be taken. However, if the Home Secretary is frank, he will admit that the fourth of the four options that he set out in his statement had never been sought; was completely new; and is the source of most of the concern that has surrounded our debates. The right hon. Gentleman will acknowledge that on no occasion did my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition or I urge him to introduce that particular power. I have never suggested that that power does not have merit, but I have said that it is new and unexpected and has serious implications for the civil liberties of innocent people and for the police vis-a-vis the courts, and that there should therefore be a full and proper examination of that power. What the Home Secretary sees as a contradiction in the Opposition's position is not in fact a contradiction at all.
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