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Mr. Straw: I do not disagree for a second with the right hon. Lady about the need to debate the issue properly, or that our proposal is new. However, she said last month that my position would have been very much strengthened if I
- had taken all measures that other countries have taken.--[Official Report, 19 June 2000; Vol. 352, c. 38.]
Miss Widdecombe: I admire the elegant wriggle that the Home Secretary has just performed, but it does not take us any further forward.
I shall, with as much brevity as the Home Secretary, turn to the amendments before us. Amendments Nos. 6, 7 and 8 stand in my name. I recognise that Government
amendment No. 42 seeks to cover the sources of concern, which were the grounds on which a constable or an inspector could detain, delay or prevent somebody from travelling. I recognise that Government amendment No. 42 takes care of many of my concerns, and the Home Secretary will be relieved to know that I shall not press my amendments.I must, however, take up an issue which I find puzzling--and which the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) also found puzzling. I do not believe that the Home Secretary gave a response to it in his contribution. In Government amendment No. 42, the Government use the phrase "reasonable grounds for suspecting". In our amendments, we offer the phrase "reasonable grounds to believe". The Government have also used "suspect" and "believe" in different places in the Bill. Is there a distinction between those words? Are we being asked to accept a lower standard in Government amendment No. 42--or is it just an accident that the Government resort to the two different words in different places? The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey also raised that point and I should be grateful for clarification. Even in the absence of clarification, however, we will not press amendments Nos. 6, 7 or 8.
Amendment No. 33 makes an important point which the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey appeared unable to understand, but which is in fact rather obvious. We sought to apply the test that detention should last only as long as reasonably necessary, and not until the officer had decided whether to proceed. If detention could last only as long as reasonably necessary, that would introduce an objective test. A police officer detaining somebody until he gets round to deciding whether to proceed is not an objective test. I accept that some of the Government's amendments cover that point and I shall not press amendment No. 33.
I listened carefully to what the Home Secretary had to say about amendments Nos. 36 and 11, when he took issue over the suggestion that the appropriate rank to grant authorisations should be superintendent. Amendment No. 36 also seeks to introduce an authorisation process: there is an authorisation process for the new powers in proposed new section 21B but not for the exercise of powers in proposed new section 21A. I await the Home Secretary's comments before deciding whether to take the matter further.
I thank the Government for accepting amendment No. 37, but I do not think that it is as superfluous as the Home Secretary tried to suggest. As the right hon. Gentleman is in emollient mood, I shall not press him further on that. Similarly, I accept that Government amendment No. 43 goes beyond what we propose in amendments Nos. 44 and 38, in which we sought to limit the time of detention and to reduce it from 24 hours. We shall not, therefore, press those amendments.
Mr. Straw: It may be helpful if I pick up the right hon. Lady's point about the use of the words "suspect" and "believe" in different places. It is deliberate, I am relieved to tell the House, and--more important--it mirrors and draws on the provisions of PACE. The phrase "reasonable grounds to suspect" is appropriate for the powers of detention and to make immediate inquiries. Once the inquiries have been made, the constable needs to have
"reasonable grounds to believe" that the conditions for a banning order have been met. That is consistent with PACE.
Miss Widdecombe: I am glad that the Home Secretary's brain caught up with him. It did not have far to travel. I note his explanation and, as I have said, we shall not press those amendments. However, I ask him to accept that amendment No. 35 has merit in that it would provide that the power of arrest and detention in proposed new section 21A should not be used repeatedly. Without that safeguard, it could be used seriatim as a power of preventive detention. The Home Secretary has acknowledged that there could be merit in the proposal, and I will accept his offer of considering it further and perhaps seeking to introduce an amendment in the other place. If he does not, others may seek to do so.
I note the Home Secretary's comments on amendment No. 11. I retain some doubt about whether proposed powers of such gravity should be left in the hands of the inspector, but the right hon. Gentleman has described operational reasons and I am prepared let that rest.
We shall, however, press amendment No. 9 to a Division when the appropriate time comes, unless the Home Secretary can persuade me that I am in deep error. The right hon. Gentleman lost his response to that amendment, then found a relevant bit of handwriting in the margin to his notes, but he did not go on to explore it very thoroughly. He has therefore not convinced me that I am in any error.
Amendment No. 9 would make the issue of a notice to appear authorisable only by judicial warrant. That process is not unknown in law. The amendment would modify what at present is an arbitrary power. Unless the Government can give me a good reason to the contrary, we shall feel constrained to press the amendment to a Division.
Mr. Simon Hughes: The right hon. Lady knows that I am sympathetic to the thrust of her argument. Does she not agree, however, that the correct process should be that the police officer who stops a person initially must have formed the view that he has sufficient justification to convince a magistrate that his action is appropriate--in addition to his obtaining the judicial authorisation of a magistrate's warrant? If the Bill provided that the same test had to be applied by the officer making the initial decision to stop a person and by the court, the measure would be simpler and clearer.
Miss Widdecombe: Yes, that is a reasonable suggestion.
Mr. Straw: I want to help the right hon. Lady on amendment No. 9. The conundrum concerns the need to get people into court, and to instigate a process that will ensure that matters are properly considered by the court. For the purposes of this argument, at least, it appears to be accepted that the police will have to intercept people about to leave the country who are intent on hooliganism. However, there will then be a need to get those people into court, and for the court to have an opportunity to consider the case against them.
First, the Government propose that the constable should have a power to stop people, to make inquiries about them, and to stop them disappearing while those inquires are made. The time limit governing that power is now to be four hours, extendable to six, but the inquiries may only take a short time. Secondly, it is our view that, if the constable is satisfied, on the basis of previous convictions, that further action is necessary, he must be able to issue a notice to get people into court.
The right hon. Lady appears to be saying that, if a constable forms the view that people have contributed to violence and disorder in the past and that there are reasonable grounds for believing that they will contribute to violence and disorder at a football match, those people must be taken to a magistrate who will issue a warrant to get them into court. I hope that she will consider--
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr. Michael Lord): Order. I remind the Home Secretary that he is making an intervention.
Mr. Straw: The right hon. Lady's proposal would mean that magistrates would have to be on hand day and night wherever the power was exercisable. That would simply not be practicable.I see that the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Bedfordshire (Sir N. Lyell), the former Attorney-General, is nodding, so I think my point about practicality is accepted.
Miss Widdecombe: I do not agree. What is impracticable about having a stipendiary magistrate on duty? If there were a real will to safeguard the rights of innocent citizens, there would be a much greater will to involve the courts and judicial processes at all stages. Therefore, I still intend to press amendment No. 9 to a Division. By the end of the debate, the Home Secretary may have thought up some even more impressive arguments, but at the moment I cannot believe that the amendment is impracticable.
8.15 pm
Sir Nicholas Lyell: I nodded at the Home Secretary because he was raising a practical problem, but my right hon. Friend is right to raise this issue. Enormous practical problems will arise from the Bill. A person can be under arrest for up to six hours, but what happens if he walks off before being called before the court?
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