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Mr. Clarke: My hon. Friend makes two important points. First, I agree that it would be far better to get international agreements. That is the best way to proceed on all the international jurisdictional issues. The right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) said on Second Reading that the best way to deal with these matters is to ensure that the forces of law and order in the jurisdiction of the country concerned deals with the situation. I understand the point, and it is a legitimate one.
However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) will understand from his own experience, there can be a long wait for international agreements to be secured. What do we do in the meantime? Do we say that no action can be taken until we have those international agreements, or do we say that, even in the absence of such agreements, some action is necessary? I acknowledge that that is a matter of judgment.
That brings me to the second point that my hon. Friend raises, which has emerged as the key debate in relation to the Bill today and on Second Reading. When we consider the proportionality of the relevant issues, we must weigh up the view that there should be no violation of individuals' civil liberties in the circumstances that we are discussing--a perfectly fair point of view--and the need,
which the Government perceive, to inhibit the hooliganism. The penalty is not ultimately very great because only limited sanctions are available. One has to make a judgment. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North has been clear about his judgment, which I respect; I also respect that of the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey. However, it is not our judgment.
Mr. Tyler: Does not the Minister recognise that the fact that this country could put the Bill on the statute book in its current form will delay and dilute the likelihood of international agreement? Other countries will reasonably ask, "Why should we bother? If we deport people back to the United Kingdom, it can deal with the problem under its legislation."
Mr. Clarke: I do not accept that. The Government have worked hard to develop a stronger international jurisdiction, especially in the European Union. My right hon. Friend stressed that at the EU Tampere summit, and will do so in all the debates that he will attend later this week. He is keen to achieve mutual recognition of jurisdictions, and we have worked hard to that end. I therefore do not believe that the Bill will inhibit progress. For that reason, we will oppose amendment No. 6.
Mr. Corbyn: In the event of football supporters from another country arriving here to watch a match and causing all sorts of trouble, is it normal practice to prosecute or simply to deport without prosecution? In view of the obvious urgency with which the Government are pursuing the issue, will my hon. Friend at least open discussions with major neighbouring European countries and ask them whether they are prepared to prosecute in the event of drunken and disorderly behaviour such as that in Brussels, and thus abandon the incredibly complicated and possibly unsuccessful attempt to pass the Bill?
Mr. Clarke: I am prepared to assure my hon. Friend that we will discuss the matter with our allies in the EU. However, it is generally acknowledged that events at Euro 2000 and the fact that English so-called supporters were predominantly, although not uniquely, involved, to our national disgrace, puts us in a different position from some other countries in trying to deal with the issues that we are discussing. On prosecution or deportation, I am not familiar with the relevant legislation in detail, but I believe that prosecution rather than deportation is the normal course.
We had memorandums of understanding with Belgium and Holland in which they agreed to prosecute those committing offences. We also made Orders in Council that set out corresponding offences to enable banning orders to be made here. In the event, those involved were not prosecuted.
The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey made another point about the position on section 29 of the Football Spectators Act 1989.
Mr. Chope: Does the Minister accept that unless amendment No. 6 is passed, someone who is prosecuted and acquitted will be in double jeopardy? On the basis,
which the Minister outlined, of someone who has a spent conviction being let out, it is surely more important to accept amendment No. 6 and ensure that people who are prosecuted and acquitted are not subject to double jeopardy.
Mr. Clarke: I shall answer that point directly later. However, I want to deal with the specific point raised by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey. Proposed new section 14C defines violence clearly in the context of the Bill.
I intended to conclude by saying that while I do not accept the position that the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey presented, I respect it, as I respect that of my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North. I also respect the comments made by the right hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald on amendment No. 6. She is right to take that stance, although, to be blunt, that has been difficult for her as there are clearly different views in her party, as the remarks of the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) have shown. Conservative Front Benchers are right to have made such a judgment and I pay respect to her for that.
I know that there have been differences and disagreements in the Conservative party, and I return to the point made by the hon. Member for Christchurch. We have to decide whether a previous conviction alone is the only test and the only evidence relevant to making a banning order by complaint or whether we accept that there is a wider test. He says that a conviction should be the only test. I understand that point of view--I made a similar response to the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey--but I do not accept it.
Mr. Chope: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way again. He has conceded the point about spent convictions, so how can he put a spent conviction in a superior position to an acquittal?
Mr. Clarke: We have to make a simple choice: should we allow other forms of evidence to be taken account of? We say yes, clearly and categorically. That is our judgment.
Mr. Browne: I am concerned that confusion between civil proceedings--proceedings by complaint--and criminal proceedings and convictions is creeping into the debate. My experience of the law north and south of the border and throughout the United Kingdom is that there is a healthy and growing jurisdiction under which people take proceedings to the civil courts even though a complaint to the criminal courts may have been unsuccessful. The Stephen Lawrence case is a prime example. Were we to accept the Liberal Democrat amendment, we could be in a ridiculous situation: citizens of the United Kingdom could be subject to civil proceedings and prevented by injunction or interdict from attending football matches in this country, but the Government would be unable to use civil proceedings to prevent the same people from travelling abroad to create mayhem. That would be nonsensical.
Mr. Clarke: That extremely helpful intervention has helped to clarify the discussion and I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who has set out the situation clearly.
I have responded to all the points and I hope that amendments Nos. 7 to 9 will not be pressed. If the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey presses amendment No. 6 to a vote, I urge my hon. Friends to reject it and support the Government.
Mr. Simon Hughes: The choice is clear, and the Minister has been fair about that. The present law covers people with a previous football-related conviction, but the Government argue that we will be able to catch more people if the range of activity is extended to include people who have no convictions. However, that would lead to the anomalies to which the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) referred, to his credit. The most extreme and bizarre would be that a conviction for a violent or football-related offence secured under the "beyond reasonable doubt" rule would be blotted out if it fell outside the period for the rehabilitation of offenders, which varies according to the offence, whereas a person who had appeared before the court, but whose case was not proven, could find himself in double jeopardy.
May I deal with the point made by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Mr. Browne)? North and south of the border, the United Kingdom allows civil and criminal proceedings. Indeed, injunctions secured in civil proceedings have been available for a long time. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman should bear with me. On the balance of probabilities--often in domestic cases, in which I have acted myself--a person has to persuade a judge to make an order prohibiting another person from going within a certain distance of, or from interfering with, him. That triggers a criminal conviction only if that individual disobeys the injunction. That then represents an offence and the individual can be arrested. The same applies here. Do we want the fact that someone has a track record of bad behaviour to be sufficient to allow an injunction-type order and a criminal sanction?
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We should proceed gradually, because there is a big danger that we will catch not just people who have caused trouble at home or abroad, but those against whom the evidence has never been tested to a satisfactory conclusion. We can argue about the right procedure, but Liberal Democrats do not think that we should move in one leap from people with convictions for football-related offences, past people with convictions for all violence- related offences, to people with no convictions at all. That is not a justified leap to take in legislation that has been through the House in two days, that has had no chance to be assessed externally, that many organisations are unhappy about, and that has not been proved necessary on the experience of Euro 2000 or anything else. It is a step too far. It is of course much more likely that people will be prevented from going abroad, but do we want to have the power to do that on the basis of thin, arguable and marginal evidence?
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