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Sir Nicholas Lyell: It is my understanding that if there is no conviction on which the magistrates can base a banning order, they have to have evidence and proof of the circumstances. They cannot simply have something mentioned: it must be established. I believe that it must be established to the criminal standard of proof.

Mr. Hughes: The legislation is silent on that matter. On Second Reading, the right hon. and learned Gentleman raised the question whether the criminal balance of proof will be required to establish the second head. The court, as well as knowing the history of previous activity, must be

satisfied that there are reasonable grounds to believe that making a banning order would help to prevent violence or disorder at or in connection with any regulated football matches.

The combination of those two leaves unclear what the balance of proof must be. The right hon. and learned Gentleman properly argued that this was another matter for which we should have explicit, not implicit, law.

Sir Nicholas Lyell: I think that it is the criminal standard of proof. The two ingredients in new section 14B(4)(a) provide that the application can be made to a magistrates court only if

it is proved on the application that the condition in subsection (2) above is met.

The condition of subsection (2) is that the respondent has been guilty of violence or disorder.

Mr. Hughes: I tend to the right hon. and learned Gentleman's view. I did not do as much in the courts as he did, and I was not as eminent as he was--[Interruption.] Yes, I was cheaper. My recollection of the civil courts is that one did not have to prove the circumstances but merely had to satisfy the judge on a balance of probabilities. It was a "more than 50 per cent." test. Therefore, that question remains unanswered.

The experience that justifies the Government's case has not been proved to our satisfaction. I ask the House to proceed cautiously. We should not legislate if we are in doubt about whether we should take away people's liberties, their passports, their right to go abroad, or their ability to be detained or to walk free.

I understand that the right hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe) feels obliged to support the Government on this provision, because it provides a tougher power. The leader of her party often seems to set the agenda on law and order for the Government to follow. Some of us are arguing that we must defend the Liberty position and ensure that the case for prosecution and for further extension of the criminal law is made.

Question put, That the amendment be made:--

The House divided: Ayes 43, Noes 196.

Division No. 273 [1.20 am

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane
Allan, Richard
Baker, Norman
Ballard, Jackie
Barnes, Harry
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Brake, Tom
Brand, Dr Peter
Breed, Colin
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burnett, John
Burstow, Paul
Chidgey, David
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cotter, Brian
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Fearn, Ronnie
Foster, Don (Bath)
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gidley, Sandra
Hancock, Mike
Harris, Dr Evan
Harvey, Nick
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Keetch, Paul
Kirkwood, Archy
McDonnell, John
Moore, Michael
Oaten, Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Rendel, David
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Sanders, Adrian
Stunell, Andrew
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Truswell, Paul
Tyler, Paul
Webb, Steve
Willis, Phil

Tellers for the Ayes:

Sir Robert Smith and
Mr. Donald Gorrie.

NOES

Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James
Banks, Tony
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Beard, Nigel
Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blizzard, Bob
Boateng, Rt Hon Paul
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burns, Simon
Butler, Mrs Christine
Caborn, Rt Hon Richard
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Cann, Jamie
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clelland, David
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Clwyd, Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Cohen, Harry
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Darvill, Keith
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davis, Rt Hon Terry
(B'ham Hodge H)
Dawson, Hilton
Day, Stephen
Dismore, Andrew
Dowd, Jim
Drew, David
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Gibson, Dr Ian
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Grogan, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John
Heald, Oliver
Healey, John
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hinchliffe, David
Hoey, Kate
Home Robertson, John
Hope, Phil
Howarth, Alan (Newport E)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)
Kemp, Fraser
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
Kumar, Dr Ashok
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Lammy, David
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Love, Andrew
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
McAvoy, Thomas
McCartney, Rt Hon Ian
(Makerfield)
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Martlew, Eric
Meale, Alan
Michael, Rt Hon Alun
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moran, Ms Margaret
Mountford, Kali
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Palmer, Dr Nick
Pickthall, Colin
Pollard, Kerry
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prosser, Gwyn
Quinn, Lawrie
Randall, John
Rapson, Syd
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Roy, Frank
Ryan, Ms Joan
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Shaw, Jonathan
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Miss Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Snape, Peter
Soley, Clive
Squire, Ms Rachel
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stringer, Graham
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Vis, Dr Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Ms Claire
Watts, David
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woolas, Phil
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek

Tellers for the Noes:

Mrs. Anne McGuire and
Mr. Tony McNulty.

Question accordingly negatived.

17 Jul 2000 : Column 170

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