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Mr. O'Brien: I hope that the bookmaking industry is listening with care to the debate. It is important that we
look at the issue of confidence in the industry. It is not just a matter of doing things the way that they ought to be done, or doing things honestly. There is also a question of perception; things must be perceived to be open and above board. There should not be public concern. It is important that the punter believes that, when he places a bet, he is getting a fair deal. There is concern about the way in which things are done. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the odds at which punters are prepared to back horses and the odds that bookmakers are prepared to offer them are not things that the Government regulate.
Mr. Salmond: I welcome the Minister's concern, and his words should be listened to carefully by those concerned. I welcome also the fact that Members on both sides of the House share that concern. However, let us say that we were not talking about betting shops and race meetings but about the financial markets. If we had a situation in which a company--in this cases SIS, which is owned by the big bookmakers--were in a position to regulate the profits available in the market, that would not be allowed legally in the financial markets. If it would not be allowed in the financial markets, why should it be allowed in this market, which affects a substantial number of people in the UK?
Mr. O'Brien: The hon. Gentleman knows well that the law has a different approach to gentlemen's agreements or gambling than it does to contracts involving financial matters, such as deals and agreements in the City. To that extent, there has historically been a different legal basis for the approach to these issues. The hon. Gentleman needs to be careful; he appears to be suggesting going much further than I think that he really wants. I think that he is identifying a particular concern that a number of punters feel about a particular issue. In his intervention, he almost seemed to be saying "Let us go much further, and regulate, on a legal basis, all contracts under which these bets are placed." I do not think that he wants to do that.
I think that, to some extent, this is a commercial matter between bookmaker and customer. If the punter does not accept the terms of one bookmaker, he can always go to another, at least in theory. Of course, he could also use the Tote--and, for obvious reasons, the Government want to encourage use of the Tote.
I accept that the betting industry is important, and we want it to succeed. I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern about something that is important to the success and integrity of the industry as a whole. After all, the industry trades on its integrity, and, as I have said, the industry is important to Britain. If it compromises its integrity, it damages our economy and the Inland Revenue's income. We are therefore watching what is happening very carefully.
Integrity must be both real and perceived to be real. When people do not believe that integrity is present, even if in reality it is, they will be reluctant to rely on it. The bookmakers need to remember that.
I was glad to learn recently that the starting price executive had responded to concern expressed in the racing press and elsewhere. It has said that it will commission independent consultants--a major accounting
firm--to undertake a review of the new SP system, to see how it is working in practice and to compare its operation with the previous arrangements. It has also said that it will use two SP returners at all race meetings except minor ones that do not feature in the betting shops' service. Each returner will monitor a minimum of five bookmakers, and the two will compare the prices that they have recorded and determine the SP.I welcome the executive's announcement. I trust that it will take account of what has been said here tonight, and that, when it reaches its conclusions with the help of the accountants, it will consider not just the views of those independent consultants, but the views of hon. Members. If there is a problem, it is important for it to be identified, and it is important for the bookmakers to be prepared to address it.
There is a possible issue of consumer protection. The Government have set up a review of gambling legislation as a whole. The review body is chaired by Sir Alan Budd, and is due to report next summer. It has extensive terms of reference, which include a requirement to make recommendations on the kind and extent of regulation that is appropriate to gambling activities in Great Britain. That wide remit will enable Sir Alan and his team to consider whether there might be controls in this area, and, if so, what they should be.
No doubt Sir Alan would want to consider evidence on this matter if it were put to him. That would be part of the whole process of ensuring that the gambling industry has not only integrity in reality, but a reputation for integrity. We are acting, at some degree of risk, because there is public concern--because people feel that they may be ripped off by bookmakers. If that is the case, we want to ensure that the bookmakers address the issue. They may want to do that by convincing people that what they are doing is proper, fair and appropriate: that is the approach that they are taking. However, they may well have to conclude that, whether what they are doing is fair or not--it may well be fair--they must bear in mind the perception that people may have, and therefore consider whether to adopt a particular course.
Mr. Meale: Given the resignation of Mr. Ellis, might it not benefit this side of the industry if the new chair had independent status? That might make it easier for people to deal with the discrepancy involved.
Mr. O'Brien: My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. Although the issues will have to be examined, I shall certainly bear in mind what he said and consider whether it is appropriate to take that action.
The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan is to be congratulated on initiating this debate. As he will know, Adjournment debates usually involve a Minister and only one other hon. Member. For this debate, however, at a late hour, quite a few hon. Members have stayed because they are seriously concerned about the issue. It is right that we should have this debate, and it is right that others should listen to it.
The Government are concerned that future gambling legislation should properly balance the interests of business with the need to protect consumers and the
public. I assure the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan that the Government are perfectly prepared to act in the interests of betting customers and of the industry as a whole if there is a need to do so. The Government are watching the situation with care, as are other hon. Members. When the House returns in the autumn, if we need to have another debate on the issue because there is still serious concern about it, I am sure that the bookmakers will realise the seriousness of the situation.
- Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes to Twelve midnight.
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