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Mr. Forth: As he gives his list, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will mention the benefits of global warming as well as the home warming packages inherited from the previous Government. Will he also mention the consistent fall in domestic fuel prices since privatisation of the energy industry? That continues to this day and my constituents and his gain from it. That would give the full picture of the extent to which people can already enhance the warmth of their homes.
Mr. Dismore: The right hon. Gentleman makes his point. On privatisation, I can say only that I have had many complaints from people, particularly pensioners, who have been doorstepped by spurious salesmen trying to persuade them to sign over their fuel contracts. People have been harassed and browbeaten into changing contracts without realising what they are signing, and I have had to make more complaints to the various regulators about that than about anything else. The right hon. Gentleman may have a point about bills--he has, perhaps, studied that more closely than I have--but I know that complaints have arisen against the plethora of companies vying dubiously for contracts, particularly among pensioners confused by what is going on.
We do not know what "acceptably warm" means. Nor did the right hon. Gentleman say whether he would, should the Conservatives win the next election, vote to abolish the winter fuel payment. I hope that he never has the chance, because pensioners tell me how valuable it is in keeping homes acceptably warm and dealing with fuel poverty.
The amendment also refers to "external ambient temperatures". I am not sure whether that is some obtuse reference to global warming. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman nods and says that it might be. That is a peculiar position to take. It would return us to the inadequate attempts of the cold weather hardship payments to deal ex post facto with keeping people's homes warm. That was a terrible way to deal with the problem. Homes had to be cold for days on end, and the money could be claimed only retrospectively. If on only one day the temperature went a degree above the limit, the pensioner received nothing. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to return to that, rather than having £150 paid in the autumn before the cold weather, he will not find favour with many pensioners. I am also worried that there may be different rules for people in the south and in the north, as there were under the old system.
I hope that I have highlighted the lack of thought behind the attacks mounted by the right hon. Members for Bromley and Chislehurst and for Penrith and The Border during the Bill's passage through the House. The solution proposed by the hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess), presumably after discussions with the Government, is the way forward. In the regulations, the Government will be able to provide sensible answers to questions about income levels, acceptable warmth and so on. They will be able to use objective criteria such as temperature, and I see that later amendments contain suggestions in that regard.
10.30 amThe organisation Friends of the Earth has made a major contribution to the Bill and has been unfairly traduced this morning. The hon. Member for Southend, West deserves congratulation on his constructive work with the Government. The Bill will help to tackle fuel poverty and ensure that pensioners do not have to suffer from hypothermia and cold homes. The winter fuel payment and the cut in VAT on fuel show that progress is being made, but if we make sure that homes are warm as a result of insulation, for example, that money will go a lot further.
Mr. Green: The Bill has benefited from detailed scrutiny in the House, and also in the exchange of letters between the Minister and my right hon. Friends the Members for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) and for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean). To keep up that level of scrutiny, I have a few practical questions that arise out of the amendments.
However, I shall begin by dealing with the extraordinary speech by the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore). I assume that he is happy with the Government's miserly pensions increase this year, which would be massively improved by the consolidation of various benefits proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts). I also assume that Labour Members are happy with the way in which the Government fiddle the inflation figures. The calculation of the rate of inflation is lower when it comes to determining the increase for pensioners than it is when the Government wish to raise petrol prices. If the hon. Gentleman is happy with both those things, he will have some explaining to do to pensioners in his constituency.
Mr. Kevin Barron (Rother Valley): Many pensioners receive occupational pensions, and so pay tax. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that paying the £150 winter fuel allowance weekly would have attracted tax, and that pensioners would have received less of the money?
Mr. Green: I note that Labour Members do not want to deal with the amount of the increase introduced by the Government, or with the fact that the Government offer no guarantee about how they will calculate inflation next year. However, I suspect that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, might consider a wider debate about the Government's miserliness towards pensioners to be out of order.
The second extraordinary point about the speech by the hon. Member for Hendon was that he devoted almost all of it to a discussion of amendments that my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border had said that he intended to withdraw. The suspicion is that that was the performance of an hon. Gentleman trying to talk out a Bill. I genuinely hope that that was not the case.
Mr. Dismore: I assure the hon. Gentleman that if I intended to talk the Bill out, I could speak for more than 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. Green: I am happy with that confirmation, but there are other groups of amendments. If all the hon. Gentleman's speeches are as irrelevant to the Bill as his first, we may well be in trouble with time later. However, I am pleased to accept the hon. Gentleman's assurance
about his intentions, as I was wondering whether he was obeying an order from his Whips. No doubt we shall find out the truth of that later.In Committee, there was a long debate about the central issue of who should benefit from the Bill. I expect the Government to support the new clause and associated amendments, but I hope that the Minister will explain what attitude the Government will take towards the important definitions arising from them.
How many people will benefit from the definitions that will appear in the regulations--a few thousand, hundreds of thousands or millions? The definitions so far set down are loose enough to encompass both large and small programmes. I appreciate that the Minister will not want to go into detail about the regulations that will emerge from the Bill, but a general indication would be useful.
Similarly, if the amendments are accepted the term "lower income" will have to be defined. Will the Minister say what percentage of households will be covered? Will the threshold be defined as a percentage of average income, or will an absolute income level be set out? If I read aright what the Minister said in Committee, the definition will cover a wider group than people receiving certain types of benefit.
If the Government choose a definition based on an absolute income figure, pensioner groups and others will want to know whether they intend to index-link the figure, to leave it as it is, or to increase it regularly.
Mr. Brake: Does the hon. Gentleman hope that the Minister will bear in mind the comments of the Minister for the Environment, who said that 8 million UK households suffer fuel poverty, and that as many as 3 million to 4 million elderly people are at risk of hypothermia?
Mr. Green: The hon. Gentleman is right. I am sure that hon. Members will be aware that, over the course of the past year, the Government have changed the definition of fuel poverty in a way that severely reduced the numbers of people said to be suffering from it. The Bill was watered down in Committee at the Government's behest, so the House is right to be moderately sceptical about the Government's true intentions.
Mr. Maclean: I am pleased that my hon. Friend is pressing the Minister to explain how the measure will define lower income households. The new clause would provide for that. One of the reasons that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) and I tabled amendments was to try to tease out from the Government the meaning of the phrase "lower income households" and to offer alternatives. The Minister was not forthcoming on that matter, but the new clause would enable us to arrive at a definition, and we shall be able to judge whether the Government are trying to dodge their obligations.
Mr. Green: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, who makes a powerful point.
Given the tenor of the discussions on the Bill, hon. Members have some reason to be a touch sceptical about the Government's true intentions. I hope that the Minister can reassure us by offering general guidelines as to his
approach to those important definitions. I support the proposals of my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess).
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