| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Simon Thomas: The tone of some of the comments, particularly the sedentary ones, has been especially unpleasant and not made for healthy debate. As somebody on the Opposition Benches who has supported the Government throughout on the matter, I am disappointed that they have not been prepared to press forward and seen fit to take the Bill through both Houses again.
We have heard much from Conservatives Members, who are great traditionalists, about the will of the people, but if this House cannot express the will of the people, what is the point of it? As this House has many times made its view on repeal of section 28 very clear, surely the matter should be taken forward. It is a great pity that, for practical reasons at this stage in the Session, we cannot do so. It is also a pity that, more than anything, the section 28 issue has characterised the Bill. There are more important issues in it that the Lords and Conservative Members could have tackled.
The Government could have done one of two things when it came to section 28. They could have let it wither on the vine. It has already been superseded by the role of governors in sex education in schools. It would certainly have been superseded by European legislation on equality. In fact, we voted earlier on a motion on such draft regulations.
However, having chosen to open the debate, the Government must accept that they have triggered an upsurge of prejudice and fear. I have seen that fear during many difficult discussions in my constituency, especially with Christian groups. I believe that, for the most part, that fear is born, not out of prejudice, but out of ignorance of what section 28 is or is not achieving, and of the Government's intentions. With respect, I suggest that the Government left a gap at the start of the process, when it
was not clear what the Bill would contain and many ordinary Members of Parliament had difficulty determining the path that the Government had plotted for us. There was a lack of leadership and the Government are reaping the consequences of that.I urge the Government to show that leadership. From the Prime Minister down, they have made it clear that they want the repeal of section 28, and it is clear that they have the support of the majority of Members of Parliament. Therefore, there is the parliamentary will to achieve that end. It is incumbent on the Minister for Local Government and the Regions to state tonight how the Government intend to proceed. I understand that she cannot make any guarantees and I respect that, but Ministers have had time in the past 24 hours to consider the next step. Will that next step consist of a short, sharp Bill, or of amendments to other Bills?
The Government should make it a priority to cure a pain in our public policy that is thwarting sensible discussion of what should be taught in schools. Irrelevant though the issue is, it is distorting that debate. The Government should give a clear commitment tonight that they will sort the matter out, once and for all, that they will allow Parliament to sort it out, and that it will not be left to drag on for much longer.
1 am
Mr. Corbyn: I was a Member of Parliament in 1987, when the awful clause 28 was introduced. I remember the homophobic speeches that were made at the time, the prejudice displayed by the Government of the day, and the effect outside Parliament. Homophobic bullying was given easy passage, which resulted in the isolation and punishment of many young gay and lesbian people, who were left in terror. Ask anyone who works with organisations such as Childline about that period and what has happened since then, and they will say the same.
There is no division of opinion among Labour Members on whether we should get rid of section 28. The issue has been discussed for a long time within the Labour party and the broader community. Many of us have fought elections, and been elected, making a clear stand against section 28 and the homophobia goes with it. I am proud that my party has done that.
However, the issue tonight is essentially one of tactics. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Marsden) made a powerful speech in which he, rightly, pointed out that the European convention on human rights and our own human rights legislation will ensure that if the Bill is enacted in its current form, it will probably be outlawed at some point, because of the implicit ban on the promotion of homosexuality that it contains. My hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw) said, rightly, that the issue has to be addressed and asked the Minister for Local Government and the Regions to state, specifically and clearly, how it will be dealt with. I asked my right hon. Friend for a similar assurance during her opening remarks, but I am sorry to say that I am not satisfied with her answer.
If the House of Lords rejects the Bill and we send it back and there is a ping-pong match between the two Houses, the Lords might, at some point, realise that the Commons is serious about the Bill, serious about human rights and serious about getting rid of section 28. If we do that now, that will be a clear and immediate response. I say with the
greatest respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Exeter that doing that will not give Lady Young massive publicity; instead, she will have been challenged immediately. However, if we delay, those who want to retain section 28 will have longer to campaign on the issue.Coming back to a Bill in the spill-over period would be a good thing; coming back to a Bill in the next Session would be less good, but it would at least show a commitment. However, if we do not address the issue at all in this Parliament and return to it only in the next Parliament, we shall have negated our responsibility to get rid of section 28, which is an issue on which many of us were elected.
The way to deal with this issue is to say to the House of Lords, "Sorry, you are not correct on this. We are determined to get rid of the prejudice within our society, which has been encouraged by section 28."
Mr. Stephen Twigg: There is no doubt that the overwhelming majority of Members want to see the repeal of section 28. If we believed that by sending it back to the House of Lords tonight through the Bill we could achieve its repeal, we would do so. The judgment upon which my right hon. Friend the Minister has made her case tonight is that we shall not be able to bring about the repeal of the section by taking that course. Nothing that my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) has said tonight has persuaded me that we can do so. Let us unite as people who want to repeal section 28 and get rid of it at the earliest opportunity.
Mr. Corbyn: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. We are united in wanting to get rid of section 28. We are discussing how we should do that. With great respect to my hon. Friend and the Minister, I have not heard anything tonight that suggests that delay will make it easier to get rid of the section. I suggest that, if anything, delay will make that slightly more difficult.
We were elected in May 1997 with a large majority. Issues such as this should have been dealt with immediately. If that approach had been taken, the repeal of the section would have been achieved more quickly than is likely now.
Mr. McDonnell: We are having a tactical discussion and trying to find a way forward. Does my hon. Friend agree that a simple commitment from those on the Government Front Bench, announced tonight, that a one-clause or simple Bill would be brought forward within weeks--in other words, in the spill-over session--would send a message to the Lords that we are serious?
Mr. Corbyn: If the Minister is able to help us with that, my hon. Friend's suggestion might take us some way forward. There is no reason why the Government could not prepare a short one-clause Bill now, publish it immediately, and show that we are determined to get rid of the obnoxious section 28 as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, my right hon. Friend has not encouraged me to believe that that is likely to happen.
Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot): I understand the passion with which the hon. Member for Blackpool, South
(Mr. Marsden) expresses himself on this issue. In fairness, he should understand that others of a different persuasion feel equally passionately about it. This is the place where we try to resolve such difficulties. If the hon. Gentleman is looking for someone to blame, he should focus on the occupants of the Government Front Bench. As has been said repeatedly, the issue was not the subject of a Labour party manifesto commitment. The Government chose to tack it on to the Bill in the hope of sneaking it through Parliament.I pay tribute to Baroness Young, who, by common consent, except among Labour Members perhaps, has fought a remarkably courageous campaign, with enormous fortitude and with enormous support from the people of Britain. It is widely recognised that last night, despite packing the other place with more cronies--another 30 since this issue was last debated there--the other place spoke for the people and parents of Britain.
It was not simply a Tory victory last night. Baroness Young would not have won had she not had the support of Labour peers, Cross-Bench peers, the bishops and the Muslim community. Those who are supporting the retention of section 28 constitute a broad coalition of the British people. Those who are in favour of its repeal are members of the Labour and Liberal parties. The issue is not about homophobia and it does not involve a tolerance of bullying. None of us on the Opposition Benches has any truck with bullying. That must be rooted out wherever it occurs in our schools.
The Government knew that they were losing ground on the issue. To placate some of the more reasonable members of the Cabinet, they produced the proposals for guidelines for sex education. They tried to do a deal with some of the bishops. They bought off some of them, but not all.
It is astonishing that the Government refused to accept an amendment which drew on the very words of the Home Secretary in the Government's own document "Supporting Families". If Labour Members have a complaint, it is about their own Government.
I can tell the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw) that four bishops voted with my noble Friend last night and four voted against, but the former Archbishop of York perhaps gave the casting vote in support of those who were in favour of the retention of section 28.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |