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Mr. David Taylor: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point about the dual role of Members of Parliament, which involves obtaining facts, figures and information about our constituencies that help to shape our speeches in the House. Does she agree that if Conservative Back Benchers under the previous Government had spent more
time in their constituencies, they would have found out a little more effectively, and at an earlier stage, about the unpopularity of policies such as the poll tax? Had they done so, such policies might not have led to Lady Thatcher's demise, the 10th anniversary of which we shall celebrate with gusto this Wednesday.
Gillian Merron: That is a creative intervention, and I share my hon. Friend's views. May his words be a lesson to us all.
Mrs. Browning: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Gillian Merron: No, I want to wind up.
I welcome the report, but I hope that we shall introduce more changes in the House that will make Parliament more relevant to my constituents' everyday lives.
7.3 pm
Mr. Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock): What a deeply conservative place the House is.
Our debate, to which I have listened carefully, has contained a true flow of ideas, but there has been a common theme: an acceptance that, somehow, the proposals that we may approve tonight are a great leap forward in our attempts to modernise and to hold the Executive to account. That is a great delusion. I support the motion on Westminster Hall sittings and, with some qualifications, which I shall discuss later, the proposal to end the main debate at 7 pm on Thursdays, but to suggest that the proposals represent a great leap forward is a charade. I shall spell out why that is so.
A feature of the House is the cosy consensus that exists between those on the two Front Benches and between those who took the shilling of Lady Thatcher or the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major), and those who no doubt aspire to office under the present Prime Minister. It is time that people stood up and said that the problem with the House is, to a large extent, the choreography between the two Front Benches, the synthetic anger that the two main protagonists throw at each other, the adversarial nature of the House and the fact that we never really examine some of the issues that are thrown up, particularly but not exclusively, by Back Benchers. I hope that my remarks will at least be different from most of those uttered this afternoon.
As the representative of a south-east constituency, I recognise the enormous difficulties faced by hon. Members who represent those parts of the United Kingdom that are far from Westminster. They have a natural desire to reach their constituencies and their duty is to be there. Our arrangements must recognise that.
My second point, which has not been made this afternoon--hon. Members may disagree with many of my arguments, but at least they are new--involves the fact that Parliament tries to do too much, compared with Parliaments in the other principal democracies, most of which are either federal or work in an extensively devolved system. In the Bundestag, the United States Congress and the Westminster-style Parliaments in Canberra or Ottawa, Members of Parliament and Ministers, or their equivalent, have to deal with broad macro-economic policy, social policy, defence and foreign affairs. We deal with broad macro-economic policy, social policy, defence and foreign affairs as well
as the sidewalks and other such issues that, although relatively important, are elsewhere dealt with by state legislatures, the Lander or the Parliaments of Alberta or New South Wales.We in Parliament try to do too much, and we therefore do it badly. Unless and until both parties come to a consensus about creating a devolved federal United Kingdom, we shall go on saying that we are focusing on and are able to scrutinise the enormous growth of government in this country when we are not. That needs to be understood.
I have already alluded to the fact that I find it nauseating that Members who have sat on the Treasury Bench suddenly undergo a Pauline conversion when they are no longer there. I shall never be guilty of that because I am not going to sit on the Treasury Bench. In the unlikely event of my being invited, I would say no, but it is not going to happen.
Mr. Mackinlay: From a sedentary position, my hon. Friend asks me why. I shall tell him. The corrupt nature of British politics involves the fact that those elected to Parliament, friend and foe alike, are told, "We hope it won't be long before you are on the Treasury Bench." This country is obsessed with the fact that promotion in politics involves becoming a Minister. Until we break that mould and elect hon. Members who do not aspire to be Ministers, the power of patronage and the control of Whips will continue. We must break that mould. If, in my small way, I can beak it by saying, as I have said before, that I never, ever want to be a Minister, we might make some progress.
The right hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Mrs. Shephard), who has left the Chamber, and other Conservative former Ministers referred to this year's inordinately lengthy recess. They are quite right, but they are not free from sin: they acquiesced in similarly long recesses when they were in office. The Labour Government may have gone further, but that does not make it right.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd's Bush (Mr. Soley) discussed the question of scrutiny. I listened carefully to his comments, as we should do, especially on this occasion, but I wonder whether he will join me in criticising our inordinately, indefensibly lengthy recess and embrace my remedy, which would apply rubrics to Westminster Hall and our sittings. In my view, the House, or perhaps Westminster Hall, could and should sit in September and October. Parliamentary questions and statements could be dealt with, but not legislation.
Have you noticed, Madam Deputy Speaker, that from time immemorial, the House sits only when the King or Executive of the day want legislation? The Government bear the idea that they must suffer scrutiny as a consequence of legislating, but if they can minimise that scrutiny, they will ensure that the House does not sit. It is time for us to assert ourselves and for hon. Members to say to the Government, whether Labour or Conservative, "We will decide when the House sits; it is our property." That is why I believe that, if a human tragedy or disaster occurs in September or October next year, a statement that would be made at other times should be made
immediately. Of course, if there are no votes, hon. Members will not be obliged to turn up. When submarines are disabled in the Mediterranean--I refer to Royal Navy submarines, not those in the Barents sea--there should be a statement in the House of Commons and Ministers should not take refuge in the parliamentary recess and avoid questions.In parenthesis, I believe that the Government made a mistake by not recalling Parliament during the fuel demonstration, as they could have tackled head on some of the bogus Opposition criticism and exposed the deeply worrying political conspiracy that sought to undermine the Government.
Mr. Mackinlay: My adrenalin is flowing, but, as it is the hon. Lady, I shall give way.
Mrs. Browning: The hon. Gentleman is generous. I should like to pick up on a point made by the hon. Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd's Bush (Mr. Soley). If Labour Members see it as part of their job to feed information to the Government of the day, I presume that they were feeding to their Whips and Ministers the anxiety in the country about the price of fuel. If that was the case and they were doing their job, why were the Government surprised and shocked when the fuel crisis began? Should not they have been fully alerted by Labour Members?
Mr. Mackinlay: That intervention demonstrates the facile nature of this place. While I was trying to explain why we should ensure scrutiny and accountability, the hon. Lady introduced a partisan view, because of the House's adversarial and gladiatorial shambles of scoring points. I often agree with views expressed by hon. Members from other parties as well with those of Labour Members. Why must there be a continuous sparring that does not address the issue on the Order Paper? I am sure that you, Madam Deputy Speaker, would like me to do that.
Mrs. Dunwoody: Will my hon. Friend explain whether he genuinely believes that there is a consensus between his political views and those of the Conservative party? Does he believe that we should always make decisions on that basis? If so, I should tell him that I have been a member of the Labour party since I was 16 and I can honestly say that I do not agree with Conservative Members. Indeed, I sometimes have difficulties with the views expressed by Labour Members, let alone other hon. Members.
Mr. Mackinlay: If I have given any impression that I identify with the Conservative party, I am amazed. If you cut me in half, Madam Deputy Speaker, you will see that Labour goes through me like words through a stick of rock. I have supported and sustained my party during bad times as well as good and I bear the scars and bruises to prove it.
We should acknowledge that we sometimes recognise wisdom and prudence in the words of hon. Members who are members of political parties other than Labour. I know
that my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) will accept that point. That is why I deprecated the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning), with whom I was disappointed, for trying to trespass into the fuel dispute when I was using it merely to illustrate the need for Parliament to sit.I invite hon. Members to consider the following point: genuine modernisation would consist of our taking away from the Government of the day control of the business of the House. Even if I cannot persuade them of that, I ask them to consider the use of Fridays. Business on that day should not be for the usual channels or the Leader of the House; it should be for ordinary Members--Back Benchers--to decide what the business and priorities should be.
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