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Mr. Winnick: I hope that I display as much independence as my hon. Friend, or, at least, nearly as much. However, I do not agree with him about taking control of the House away from the Government, although I believe that plenty of time should be allowed for Back-Bench speeches. Does he agree that we were elected as Labour Members to get a Labour Government to achieve a number of aims near to our heart, such as the minimum wage, trade union measures or reform of the House of Lords? I want to give the Government the powers and opportunity to achieve those aims. I have not come to this place as an independent Member of the sort that existed in the 18th or 19th centuries. I come here first and foremost as a Labour Member and I am proud to stand on a Labour party ticket in a general election.
Mr. Mackinlay: So am I, but, with respect, I was addressing some comments made when my hon. Friend was not present. They related to Friday sittings. On Fridays, we do not usually consider Government legislation. I believe that the priorities for Friday debates should lie more with the whole House than with the Front Bench.
On Westminster Hall, I should like to comment briefly on the Deputy Speakers. I believe that the present arrangements are unsatisfactory. We should either increase the number of Deputy Speakers or refer to the hon. Members who preside at Westminster Hall as Chairpersons. There is a case for increasing the number of occupants of the Chair in the House of Commons. The Canadian House of Commons has the same number of Speakers and Deputy Speakers as this place, but it also sits a lot less, both annually and daily. There is a powerful case for more Deputy Speakers, but if the present arrangements endure, a distinction must be drawn between hon. Members who preside over proceedings in Westminster Hall and those who preside in the Chamber.
The right hon. Members for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) and for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) were dismissive of how Westminster Hall can be and is used. I should like, however, to draw on my experience during the experiment. I am sorry to see that my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich is departing, as I wanted to refer to some of the discussions over which she presided. She will recall occasions when a number of Back Benchers were able to probe Ministers sufficiently to leave them isolated on issues that were not party political but were contentious. Although there had been no pre-planning or preparation, hon. Members from
all parties could, almost by instinct, probe the Minister effectively and extract commitments that might otherwise not have been made.My hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich might have been in the Chair when the Minister for Europe, my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Vaz), was questioned about Gibraltar. He was probed on the deficiencies in existing policy and we were able to extract some commitments which the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, whose report was being discussed, could pursue with greater vigour after that morning's debate.
Mr. David Heath: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is making a good point. Often, it is the cumulative effect of debates that has an influence, which is why the increased opportunity to obtain Adjournment debates can affect Ministers. It is when a Minister is required to recite a threadbare brief for the fourth or fifth time and it is clear that he is not committed to it that we get progress. That may have happened in respect of the case of the far east prisoners of war, in which the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) and I were involved.
Mr. Mackinlay: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. How we as Back Benchers exploit the opportunities of Westminster Hall is largely down to skill and tactics. That was well illustrated by another debate in which I participated on the future of BBC World television. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. Hain), was in a difficult position because he was trying to defend a decision that was about to be taken by the BBC's governors. I am satisfied that the governors' decision was altered as a consequence of that bipartisan, effective and skilfully prosecuted debate by Back Benchers. The Minister was on the receiving end, and we extracted from him and from the governors changes that would not otherwise have been made.
The right hon. Members for Bromley and Chislehurst and for Penrith and The Border were dismissive of the publicity that debates in Westminster Hall sometimes receive in the regional media. It is important for us to be able to articulate in this place concerns that are ventilated in the press. The regional media are often as important as the national media, if not more so. The increased opportunities that Westminster Hall has afforded us has enabled Members of Parliament to express opinions that would not otherwise be aired in the House, but which need to be articulated because they are often unpopular or unpalatable, or represent minority views. If hon. Members can get a slot, they can put them on the record.
I was recently in an isolated position but was nevertheless able to probe the Minister of State, Home Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Clarke), about the cover up of police corruption and wrongdoing in the Metropolitan police area, including the unprofessional conduct of its complaints investigation branch. The subject was very important to a constituent of mine, but it also had a wider importance, and I was able to raise that issue on the Floor of the House of Commons, albeit Westminster Hall. I hope that what will flow from that will be to the benefit of my constituent, who has suffered because of the CIB's arbitrary actions. However, it has also meant that the media have been able to air this important subject, which had to some extent been suppressed by a number of agencies.
I want to make a small point about the rubric of Westminster Hall, which I hope the Minister and members of the Modernisation Committee will consider. Debates in Westminster Hall are often detailed and complicated for the Member who is raising the issue. I have never had access to the Dispatch Box, and I do not want it, and I only use notes, but I feel that an equivalent of the Dispatch Box is needed in Westminster Hall for the Minister and for the Member opening the debate, who often need to use extensive notes and documents. It would help them if they had the equivalent of the Dispatch Box, which could be positioned where the Member finds it most comfortable, bearing in mind the nature of that Chamber.
I shall conclude by inviting hon. Members on both sides of the House to step back and consider why we should accept this relatively modern idea that the House should sit only when the Government say so--primarily when legislation is needed. If we do, we would be subordinating our historic duty to provide scrutiny and accountability. I hope that the Modernisation Committee will address that issue in the future.
Westminster Hall is an asset to those of us who want to probe the Executive, but it is nothing more than that. We have it, so we should hold on to it--that is a basic trade union principle. However, we have a long way to go before we can start rebuilding the status of this place and meeting the expectations of the public. Parliament should be a forum and fulcrum for real debate. It does not matter to me whether it is in this Chamber or in Westminster Hall, which I find comfortable--I welcome its intimacy, which enables us to communicate ideas.
There is a danger that we will think that we have done well, but this is only a small increment towards fighting the inexorable power of Members on the two Front Benches to choreograph this place. That is unhealthy for them, for the parties they represent and for parliamentary democracy. I support the continuance of this experiment. We should not lose Westminster Hall, but we have a long way to go.
7.25 pm
Mrs. Anne Campbell (Cambridge): A little while ago, the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean), who is about to leave the Chamber, kindly credited me with having been here since the start of the debate. I must confess to him and to the House that I was not present at the start and I missed some of the opening speeches, for which I apologise. If the trains had been running today at the times and the speed they were when I made my arrangements, I would have been here on time.
Mr. David Taylor: Blame privatisation.
Mrs. Campbell: My hon. Friend blames privatisation; we know the reason for the rail disruption. I apologise for not being here earlier.
This has been an interesting and instructive debate. Many issues have been aired, and I have listened to the discussion with great interest. I want to pick up on the point made earlier--that things done for the convenience of Members somehow run counter to the democratic process. Things done for the convenience of Members can take away some of the democratic facilities in this place
that we need, but not necessarily. I believe that many of the changes made by the Modernisation Committee have proved effective and have made us more efficient when conducting our business.The added opportunity for debate initiated by Back Benchers--an important point not made previously--is welcome. There have been 108 hours of extra parliamentary time for Back Benchers to raise the issues that they feel are important after being in their constituencies and talking to their constituents. The right hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Mrs. Shephard) said that we act as the voice of the electorate between elections, and I fervently believe that to be true. On this occasion, I do not disagree with an Opposition Member. What she said adequately reflected my view.
Politicians are often said to be out of touch. We must keep in touch by making constituency visits, talking to constituents and listening to their concerns. We do not have a dual role. I do not think that we have one role in the constituency and another in Parliament: they are one and the same. We need to bring to this place not only our own experience, but that of our constituents. We cannot adequately do so unless we are prepared to spend time in the constituency talking to the people whom we represent about their concerns.
We do not necessarily have a social worker role, although we all get involved in that way. We help people to move from unsatisfactory accommodation, to put up street signs or to get pedestrian crossings. Those are important, but we also listen to people who are suffering because of the way in which legislation is currently working.
I initiated one debate in Westminster Hall about education standard spending assessments, a subject dear to the hearts of my constituents. The debate was excellent; many right hon. and hon. Members spoke in it. Everyone claimed that theirs was the worst funded local education authority. I did not claim that--I know that mine is not the worst funded--but it was an important debate. It was critical of the way in which the Minister for School Standards answered the points. She did it well, but she came under a lot of pressure to explain why there was delay and exactly what the Government were doing to try to correct mistakes by the previous Government.
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