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8.14 pm
The Parliamentary Secretary, Privy Council Office (Mr. Paddy Tipping): I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) on her first outing from the Front Bench, although I did not agree with all she said. I have followed her career with interest. She has been an influential special adviser and a sparky Back Bencher who then took the silence of the Whip's Bench. If anyone thinks that we are in for consensual politics across the House, they are mistaken.
To come straight to the point, the House is being asked to agree the third and fourth reports of the Select Committee on the Modernisation of the House of Commons. The right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young) told us that the reports had been agreed by the Committee. He has played an influential role in the Select Committee and his wise advice, which does not always go down well with some of his colleagues, will be sorely missed. I also want to put on record my thanks and those of the House to every member of the Modernisation Committee. They do a difficult task, as those who have heard tonight's debate will know.
Although the Select Committee reports have been agreed, there has been substantial disagreement across the House. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have made it clear that they intend to divide the House. I welcome that--I think that it is very healthy. The debate has been characterised by different groups of Members--the radicals and reformers, the radicals and revolutionaries, the reformers and the reactionaries. My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) said that he would break the mould--a real radical comment. He told us that he did not want a Front-Bench position, but my impression was that his speech reflected the fact that he was running for another kind of elected office. I wish him well. I also wish my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd's Bush (Mr. Soley) doubly well in that respect.
My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) did not call herself a radical; she called herself a reformer.
Mr. Bercow: I am rather alarmed at the way in which the hon. Gentleman equates reactionary positions with Conservative positions. If he has studied political philosophy, which I feel sure that he has done, does he not accept that there is a significant difference between the two? Many of us who take a Conservative view and a sceptical view of the changes proposed do so because we subscribe to Lord Falkland's dictum that that which it is not necessary to change it is necessary not to change.
Mr. Tipping: The hon. Gentleman and many of his right hon. and hon. Friends expressed reactionary views in a radical way. I will turn to the reactionaries in a minute. However, first I want to talk about the reforming instincts of my hon. Friend the Member for Deptford. She has been influential in bringing about change, in an evolutionary way--the kind of evolutionary change that the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) talked about. I note that during the course of the debate the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning) and the right hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Mrs. Shephard) felt, in general terms--although they did not agree with every dot and comma--that the reports offered the right kind of evolutionary approach.
Let me spell out the difference between the reformers and the reactionaries. My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd's Bush said that change needs to be seen as part of a package of reform which certainly will not end with the reports before us today. That is my view. The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) told us that we could go back to where we were. I do not think that there is any turning back in the process--change will continue to occur.
A number of right hon. and hon. Members have used the debate to address wider issues, such as the use of private notice questions and private Members' Bills, the parliamentary calendar and extended sitting hours. Those are indeed important issues, to which, in the course of time and our evolutionary approach, we shall return.
As both reports make clear, Westminster Hall and Thursday sittings are experiments that the House is being asked to extend for the lifetime of this Parliament and the first Session of the next one. The new Parliament will then take a decision on the way forward. I believe that the way forward on Thursday sittings and Westminster Hall is the evolutionary and progressive way.
During the debate few Members--with two or three honourable exceptions--took issue with Thursday sittings. Most Members favour the Thursday experiment, and my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Mrs. Campbell) put matters well by saying that while Members of Parliament are asked to perform different roles, those roles are complementary--the one feeds off the other. Some hon. Members try to be prescriptive about those roles, but I do not believe that there is a single rubric for being a Member of Parliament. There are 659 of us, and one size does not fit all. Indeed, as I glance around the Chamber, I can see my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Rutherglen (Mr. McAvoy), a leading colleague in the Whip's Office, who will know that one size does not fit us all. He is a big political bruiser, himself, but I am always keen to acknowledge his valuable work, and I do like Thursday evenings off. A balance must be struck between doing our work here at Westminster and in our constituencies.
The right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire, among others, expressed concern about Thursday being a normal sitting day. The right hon. Gentleman pointed out that many parliamentary groups now meet on Tuesday or Wednesday, and the focus of the parliamentary week has in a sense fixed on those days. He was involved in producing the report, so he knows that the House has in fact sat longer since the Thursday experiment was introduced. That is an important point: more time is being given for debate on Thursdays, and the issues debated remain as important as they were previously. There has been no diminution in the business that the House is being asked to consider on Thursdays. However, the experiment continues, and we shall have to keep the matter under review.
Westminster Hall has been a more contentious matter. My own view is that it has provided many valuable opportunities for Back-Bench debates. Hon. Members on both sides have commented on the value of those debates.
Mr. David Taylor: How did my hon. Friend view the comments of the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean), who traduced Back Benchers who raised local and regional issues as whingers from Bongo Bongo? Does my hon. Friend believe, as I do, that that was insufferably patronising, and that if there were a parliamentary prize for cant and arrogance, the right hon. Gentleman ought to deserve several nominations?
Mr. Tipping: My hon. Friend makes his point admirably--subtly would perhaps be the right word--without my having to comment on it.
There has been a general welcome for the greater opportunities for Back-Bench debate in Westminster Hall. Hon. Members should have an opportunity to raise debates that are important to them. Some Members have suggested that debates are shuffled off to Westminster Hall, or are not controversial. I remind the House that the middle east, genetically modified organisms, climate change and Sierra Leone have all been discussed in Westminster Hall. They may not all be party political issues, but they are all extremely important social and economic issues that need careful attention and much debate.
The Westminster Hall experiment also gives hon. Members an opportunity to raise topical matters, and I am delighted to learn that the right hon. Member for
South-West Norfolk will debate the European Union sugar regime tomorrow. That is an interesting issue. International influences, such as that of the World Trade Organisation, will have real effects on farmers in Norfolk and Nottinghamshire. I may not be able to be with the right hon. Lady throughout her debate tomorrow, but I shall certainly follow it extremely closely.
Mrs. Shephard: If the Minister cannot be present throughout the debate tomorrow, may I excuse his absence to the Chair and pray his support in aid?
Mr. Tipping: The right hon. Lady may certainly pray in aid my support on an important issue. International pressures will force real changes on farmers who are struggling to make a living in Nottinghamshire and Norfolk, and she will provide a good demonstration of Westminster Hall's topicality and the way in which Members may use opportunities to raise issues of real importance. Scoffing mention has been made by some Members to the effect that Westminster Hall is all for the press, radio and other media in our localities. I merely echo the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge that it is important that we should be seen to be the voice of our constituents here in Parliament.
Mr. Bennett: When we had Wednesday morning sittings, a debate such as that referred to by my hon. Friend would have been replied to by a Cabinet Minister. If the Government are keen to make Westminster Hall significant, would it not be better if that debate, or the one on the middle east, had had a response from a Cabinet Minister?
Mr. Tipping: I was interested when my hon. Friend made a similar point earlier. As far as I can recall--I may be wrong and will check the record--no Cabinet Minister replied to a Wednesday morning debate. Scoffers have said that only Under-Secretaries reply in Westminster Hall, but Labour Members have confirmed that many Ministers of State have replied to debates there.
I also emphasise that real probing takes place in Westminster Hall. My hon. Friend the Member for Eccles (Mr. Stewart) spoke movingly of the importance that his debate on vaccine-damaged children had had, and we have heard other examples this evening.
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