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Ms Glenda Jackson: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I understood that we were debating visitors' visas this evening. I was not aware that we were embarking on a broader debate about asylum applications. Would you be good enough to rule on the matter?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Sylvia Heal): I think that it is clearly understood that if the hon. Gentleman was out of order, I would correct him.
Mr. Lidington: I am sorry that the hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate (Ms Jackson) is so eager to cover up the Government's embarrassment over the increased waiting times for all immigration and asylum appeals. [Interruption.] That creates the difficulties, which are apparent to the House this evening, with the prohibitive fees that the Government plan to impose.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (Mr. David Lock): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way eventually. Let me return him to the point that we are supposed to be debating. Will he give comfort to Conservative candidates who are wandering up and down the constituency of my
hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Gapes) and assure them that a future Conservative Government would fund the fees through general taxation and thus remove them? Or are Conservative candidates conducting a completely bogus campaign in Ilford, South?
Mr. Lidington: I can understand the Parliamentary Secretary's desperation. However, as Parliamentary Secretary, he should concentrate on trying to justify the regulations for which his Department, rather than the Home Office, is responsible. He should respond to the criticisms, which hon. Members from all parties have made, of the Government's measure.
There is a case for the sort of system that has existed since 1993. It has the merit of allowing a determination to be made speedily so that the applicant can at least know where he or she stands before the intended visit. There is also a case for an appeal system that allows people to have a hearing by an independent judicial or quasi- judicial authority.
The Government's proposal is a sham. It masquerades as an appeal system, but Ministers have quite deliberately and with breathtaking hypocrisy--to use the words of the hon. Member for Ilford, South--set the fee at a level that will deter people from making an application and thus keep the numbers down. If Ministers are now experiencing a tide of anger and betrayal from the people to whom they made such generous promises, they have no one but themselves to blame.
10.40 pm
Mr. Jim Marshall (Leicester, South): Such breathtaking hypocrisy from the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) is unbelievable. He says that the Government's proposals are a sham. The problem predates 1993: it goes back to 1979. The screw against immigration to this country was tightened every year between 1979 and 1997. The hon. Gentleman represents the party that introduced the British nationality legislation, that brought in the primary purpose rule and that in 1993 abolished the right of appeal for visitors. Instead of attempting to lecture and hector Government Members and, implicitly, the Liberal Democrats, he owes the House an apology for the historical experience of 1979 to 1997. A few years of silence from the hon. Gentleman is required, rather than raising his profile visually and vocally in the coming general election campaign.
I agree with most of what the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) said. If my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is not prepared to accept the hon. Gentleman's pearls of wisdom--I am sure that he is not prepared to accept mine--I intend to accompany the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends into the Division Lobby if there is a Division.
I must congratulate my right hon. Friend on his bravura performance. He realised that he was on a sticky wicket, so he referred to his experience as a constituency MP. I know how busy he is in his constituency dealing with these matters, as I and other hon. Members are in ours. We all appreciate that, and we know that he has the best interests of the black and Asian community at heart. That was implicit in what he said. He gave way many times to try to appease hon. Members who have concerns. It was quite a good performance.
I shall repeat to my right hon. Friend what I said to the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey. I am not convinced by the Government's argument, and given what I have heard so far I intend to vote against the regulations.
I take some pride in the restoration of the right of appeal against the refusal of a visitor's visa to the United Kingdom. However, I cannot help but repeat that I oppose the measure because I believe that the restoration of that right is tarnished by the imposition of a £500 fee for an oral appeal and £150 for an appeal based on a review of the papers. Despite what the Home Secretary says, that will act as a grave deterrent in many cases.
Like me and other hon. Members, my right hon. Friend will recall that the abolition of a right of appeal in 1993 caused great anger and resentment in the black and Asian communities in this country. Many of us will have witnessed in our advice surgeries the anger and resentment. Many of us will have witnessed at first hand the desperation, bewilderment, hopelessness and helplessness on the faces of our constituents when their relatives have been refused a visitor's visa for reasons that, to them, appear perverse.
We know that that has led to many of us becoming a conduit for appeals against the present system. I, as others do, write many letters monthly to the relevant Minister asking him or her to review a case. Occasionally one succeeds, but more often than not the case rests as it was decided by the person in the British mission abroad.
We all accept that we live in a multi-ethnic society, in which many of our citizens have close links with extended family members living in countries other than the United Kingdom. They wish to maintain those links. As hon. Members have said, an important way of doing so is by inviting family members to weddings, births and funerals. It is an essential part of maintaining contact with their relatives and culture abroad. In order to ensure that all families are not denied the opportunity to be together, it is essential that the appeal system be re-established. That is what we are now faced with, fortunately. However, I repeat for the third time: I oppose the imposition of fees.
As I said to the Home Secretary, I am not persuaded by the Government's argument over costs. Even if the majority of appellants opted for an oral appeal, the cost, based on the figure of 19,500, would still be less than £10 million. I understand that, in my brief absence from the Chamber, he indicated that the total number of refusals was nearer 40,000, so even if all those people were to appeal the total cost would still be less than £20 million per annum. That could be found not only from the £600 million extra that the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced for immigration control, as referred to by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey, but from the largesse that the Chancellor, we are told, hoards in the Treasury to increase public expenditure next year, the following year and the year after.
There is, however, a far more compelling reason for opposing the imposition of fees. Such an imposition is inconsistent, as the hon. Gentleman said, with the rest of the social welfare tribunal system under which family visitor appeals will be heard. There are no fees for any other type of immigration appeal. There are no fees for employment and social security tribunals. There are no fees for disability and medical appeals. There are no fees for mental health review tribunals, so the imposition of
fees in that sphere could represent the thin end of the wedge and a significant departure from one of the underlying aims of the tribunal system: to maximise the access to justice of those who lack the means to mount a conventional legal action in the courts.As my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) said, the fees will deter some genuine cases from appealing because, no matter how strong they believe the case to be, the possibility of failure will remain. For people in the most impecunious circumstances in Bangladesh, India or Pakistan, the prospect of losing £150 or £500 will be a sufficiently strong deterrent to stop them lodging an oral or a written appeal. I call on my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to draw on his experience as a constituency Member of Parliament to recognise the truth of that point.
Those who have dealt regularly with immigration cases know the importance of the credibility of both the applicant and the family in the United Kingdom. There is no doubt in my mind that, if costs were not a problem, most appellants would opt for an oral hearing to enable their relatives in the United Kingdom, where the appeal would be heard, to demonstrate their credibility before the adjudicator and to explain on their relative's behalf how his or her case had been misunderstood in the British mission abroad. That is what has happened in the current appeal system, and that is what would happen in the new system with only oral appeals. If my right hon. Friend draws on his constituency experience, I believe that he will accept the validity and the truth of that point, too.
I hope that my right hon. Friend will have second thoughts. Even if he is not prepared to withdraw fees entirely, he could set them at a more realistic level. To my mind, £500 is a deterrent to an oral appeal. The fee needs to be reduced substantially if an oral appeal is to be accessible to the majority of applicants who would, if given the opportunity, make such an appeal their first choice.
If my right hon. Friend cannot give such guarantees, I shall have to follow my conscience and honour the word that I have already given the House by voting against the regulations.
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