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Mr. McNamara: Has my right hon. Friend considered the heraldic significance of the badge, which displays not
parity of esteem but all power coming from the Crown? That is why people who do not accept that interpretation cannot be comfortable with it.
Mr. Mandelson: Well, now: careful, careful.
Mr. McNamara: Have a word with the Duke of Norfolk.
Mr. Mandelson: I will indeed have a word with the Duke of Norfolk, but it will have to wait for another day. I hope that my hon. Friend does not mind if, instead, I conclude my remarks.
The battle is to achieve something that will get us consensus rather than controversy. I cannot conceive of rejecting the board's proposals for the new police service badge, and it is to the board that I shall turn in the first instance for its views and agreement on the new badge. I cannot conceive of rejecting the board's proposals if they reflect a genuine consensus within it and are capable of receiving community-wide support in the new police service. Incidentally, by consensus I am not talking about a 10:9 vote, or even a 14:5 vote if all the nationalists or all the Unionist Assembly Members of the board voted against. My hope is that the whole board will be able to rally round a preferred option, and there will not be a narrow vote with a thin majority to try to drive through someone's view and overcome the sensitivities of others.
Even if unanimity cannot be achieved, I am looking for the board to come forward with proposals that command genuine cross-community support. That is majority support from each tradition on the board. If the board fails to do that, as I have said, and as the Bill provides, I shall have to call the matter myself. In those circumstances, I would not impose an outcome which would deter recruitment from either side of the community. That would be the ultimate folly, and completely self-defeating. Having come all this way with all the pain that this legislation has involved, it would be folly if we were to throw away the ultimate prize on a wrong call over the badge or emblem of the police, which then succeeded in sparking controversy and alienating one side and deterring recruitment.
Mr. Robert McCartney: The Minister has said that he does not wish to extend the constitutional debate to the issue of insignia. However, has not the right hon. Gentleman claimed that in one sense the constitutional issue has been settled on the basis of the principle of consent, and that Northern Ireland will remain an integral part of the United Kingdom until a majority decides otherwise? That being the case, what objection can there be to the badge of a force that is upholding the Queen's peace? The Queen's peace is upheld in the mainland and Northern Ireland, the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. What objection can there be to the use of the crown as an emblem? It is not--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. and learned Gentleman's intervention is becoming a speech.
Mr. Mandelson: I take the hon. and learned Gentleman's point. Not for the first time, and although I would not follow him in all his language, he has probably put my argument better than I did. I believe that the principle of consent has resolved the age-old quarrel, and
that enables us to put that quarrel and the violence that is associated with it behind us once and for all. That does not mean that people will not pursue their legitimate aspirations and political objectives, depending on the tradition from which they come. However, they do so by peaceful and democratic means on the basis of the principle of consent that the hon. and learned Gentleman has described. I accept that.The problem arises when others come in and reinterpret the meaning or implications of the inclusion of such symbols as the crown in the police insignia, and start reading into it certain constitutional implications which I fear would reignite the quarrel. The police service would be embroiled in a quarrel which I believe is a matter for politics and not for policing. The quarrel should be resolved on the basis of the principle of consent and not by some proxy means involving various and different symbols.
Lords amendment No. 101 adds the ombudsman to the list of those to whom the Policing Board shall send a copy of any reports of inquiries held. There is already a requirement to notify the ombudsman of inquiries under clause 58(2)(a). With those words, I commend the amendments to the House.
Mr. Andrew MacKay (Bracknell) rose--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. William Thompson.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman. I did not see that the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, the right hon. Member for Bracknell (Mr. MacKay), was rising as fast as he did, because he remained on his feet while I was on mine.
Mr. MacKay: I hope that I rose as quickly as I was allowed to do, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I would not like to embarrass you.
Lords amendment No. 93, which worries my colleagues and me, relates to the ombudsman. I shall speak only on this amendment, and I shall do so relatively briefly. To summarise, the amendment would insist that the ombudsman be consulted in simple terms when, for example, the police might be using baton rounds. That is extremely dangerous, and I shall explain why. I refer to the definition of ombudsman in the "New Oxford Dictionary". It reads:
- An official appointed to investigate individuals' complaints against maladministration, especially that of public authorities.
Without being disrespectful to the present or any future ombudsman, I do not believe that that is her role or anything to do with her. She has plenty to do in
investigating complaints. I think that the Minister will confirm that we supported the setting up of the ombudsman. There was nothing between us on the issue. I believe that the ombudsman should sit in judgment on complaints that are sent to her. It is not possible for her to do so if she has already given a view on the matter. If that were to happen in any other court or on any other occasion where an independent person was considering an appeal, I think that there would be judicial review. I think also that the person sitting in judgment would be ruled ineligible to make a judgment and a decision.I am sure that the Minister of State and the Secretary of State do not wish to put the ombudsman in that position. I do not want to do so either. We oppose the amendment because we think that it is distinctly unhelpful.
The Secretary of State occasionally, and the Minister of State perpetually, complain that I do not stick to the letter of the Patten report. I do not think that the letter has to be stuck to, but they do. The Patten report states that the ombudsman should be notified, not consulted. I suggest that that goes far enough, and that we should return to that position.
Having explained why we are opposed to Lords amendment No. 93, we run into a slight technical problem. The amendment will not be called to be voted upon for quite some time. This debate and another four debates on other amendments will take place before it is reached. It is now almost 7 o'clock and we have only another three hours because of the timetable motion, to which many right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House objected. I am in the slightly difficult position of wishing to advise my colleagues to vote against the amendment when they will probably not be able to do so.
As a protest, it could be that we shall have to divide the House on Lords amendments Nos. 24 and 25, to which we have no particular objections. It seems that that is the only way in which we can express our legitimate concerns by way of a vote. That well illustrates why so many of us voted against the timetable motion. It makes a mockery of debate in this place.
7 pm
Mr. McDonnell: I have a question for the Minister who will respond to the debate. Lords amendment No. 28, relating to consultation, would result in clause 27(2) providing that, before issuing a code of practice, the Secretary of State would be required to consult the board, the Chief Constable and any other parties, as he saw fit. Amendment (a) to Lords amendment No. 28 is an attempt to include the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. I support amendment (a), especially in light of the emphasis that has been placed tonight on the importance of human rights development within the Northern Ireland police service. My question is this: in the process of deciding which bodies he considers it appropriate to consult, will the Secretary of State publish any protocol or guidance relating to the matters on which he intends to consult? It would be useful to have some assurances regarding the transparency of the decision- making process relating to consultation arrangements.
Mr. Thompson: The right hon. Member for Bracknell (Mr. MacKay) has already spoken to the amendment that I intended to address--Lords amendment No. 93. I, too,
think that it would be wrong to consult the ombudsman on matters such as plastic bullets, whose use is part of the normal operations of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. The other place agreed to remove from clauses 24 and 25 the requirement to consult the ombudsman, and it strikes me as right to remove it from clause 51. Such consultation might prejudice any decision the ombudsman had to make and it would make some people highly reluctant to make complaints to her, for fear that she would be biased.The Secretary of State commented on the emblems of the RUC. Apparently, people think that there are two equal communities in Northern Ireland. There are not. There is a majority community that wants to remain part of the United Kingdom and a minority community that wants to break that link. The two communities are not equal. Attempting to please everybody results in the majority tending always to lose out, no matter what its members think, so that the minority is placated.
The Secretary of State tells us that he would have been happy to retain the name of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, but he felt unable to do so because the minority would not accept it; therefore, there has to be a new name. He says that he would have no particular objection to retaining the crown, but, again, the minority will not accept it; therefore, the likelihood is that we shall end up with a badge without a crown. The right hon. Gentleman should understand that, by trying to placate a minority, he loses the confidence of the majority of Northern Ireland's people.
The vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland, whether Unionist or nationalist, were quite happy with the name of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and with the badge and emblems of that fine force. The Secretary of State should be careful about making changes.
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