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Rev. Ian Paisley: I want to speak about the badge and the emblems for a moment or two. What the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) said is not accepted by the vast majority of Unionists, who do not believe that the agreement brought about the end of
the dispute. The Secretary of State said that the dispute over sovereignty was at an end and asked why we should resurrect it by having an argument about the badge. No Unionist in Northern Ireland worth his salt believes that the dispute is at end because after the agreement was made a series of things was added to it. In Stormont, a Sinn Fein Member made the ridiculous suggestion that poppies should not be allowed in the foyer of the Parliament buildings on Remembrance day and should thrown out on the street. He said Sinn Fein Members would see that there would be no poppies in the building next year.All down the line, there has been an attack on those emblems that say that we are a legitimate part of the United Kingdom. What about the Union flag? The Secretary of State thought that he had taken that away as part of the devolved right of the Stormont Administration, and that he had the settling of the issue. Perhaps he thought that things would come right, but to his cost, he has found that they have not. Two Sinn Fein Ministers moved out of their offices as soon as the flag was erected. If Northern Ireland is a legitimate part of the United Kingdom, there should be no argument about the flying of the national flag. If the matter is settled, it should be beyond dispute. However, it is not settled, as Sinn Fein and other nationalists are prepared to carry on the battle until they get what they want. They think that if they do so, the majority Ulster population will eventually be forced to agree.
I, together with the people whom I represent, do not accept that the Belfast agreement made Northern Ireland legitimate within the United Kingdom and was a final end to the battle. That is not so, as the battle for the Union is raging in this debate. The crown, the harp and the shamrock, for example, are on the badge. As is regularly said in the House, there is a history behind that, which corresponds with that of other police forces in the United Kingdom. Nationalists who accept the agreement say that Unionists have nothing to worry about, as the legitimacy of the union is upheld. Why must the nationalists make such an outcry about the badge? After all, it has the symbol of Ireland on it because, as has been said, southern Ireland claimed the harp. I would like to think that all of us hope to play a harp some day--but perhaps I would be ejected from a republican heaven and not allowed to hold such an instrument.
Mr. McNamara: The hon. Gentleman would be welcomed immediately.
Rev. Ian Paisley: One thing is certain, and that is that I will not be in purgatory, so the hon. Gentleman need not worry.
We are going to have police stations that will never have a union flag up, although I thought that we were a legitimate part of the United Kingdom and that the argument was over. We are going to have police stations that can never have a portrait of the Queen on their walls simply because that would raise the matter again, although I thought that it had been settled. The Secretary of State stood at the Dispatch Box and said that he was worried about those matters being raised again, and that we might miss the prize. However, that prize involves taking away from Northern Ireland every symbol, every practice and every flag that is flown, so that there can be development through a sort of condominium into the final united
Ireland. That is the target for Sinn Fein-IRA and the republican and nationalist movement. The badge should be left alone, and the arguments should cease. Those who say that the argument about legitimacy is past can prove that they are sincere by leaving the badge alone.The serious problem is that the structures of the Royal Ulster Constabulary will be changed. If the Secretary of State had appointed as ombudsman a woman who was the wife of a prominent official Unionist councillor, there would have been riots in the House, as people would want to know how she could possibly be a fair party. Yet the majority population was prepared to accept the appointment of an ombudswoman, a constituent of mine, whose husband is a prominent member of the SDLP, and who was very much engaged in his activities. If I stood up in the House and said anything about that appointment, Members would have roared me down. However, we have to accept that appointment because we are told that is the way that things are going to be.
There has been talk in the House about the Human Rights Commission. When it was appointed, I advocated to the then Secretary of State that my party be represented on it, but she told me that we would not have that representation. If Members of Parliament want us to accept a commission, it should represent the opinion of people in the country. However, the Human Rights Commission does not, which is why people have no faith in it. A lot of people on the nationalist and unionist sides do not have faith in it because it was not fairly appointed and does not reflect the opinion of people in Northern Ireland.
The matter of recruitment will come up later, although it has been briefly stated that it is all right, as it is in keeping with European law. However, the recruitment matter will not go away simply because people say that it is in keeping with European law. It is not right to set targets for employment on the basis of people's religion.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. As the hon. Gentleman has flagged up himself, that matter is more relevant to a later group of amendments, so I hope that I can deter him from speaking on it now.
7.30 pm
Rev. Ian Paisley: As the matter was mentioned by previous speakers, including the Secretary of State, I am entitled to make my brief comment thereon. I was tempted on to the forbidden ground, but I shall now go on to ground that you cannot forbid me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and that is the issue before us, which goes to the heart of the matter. People in the majority community, who are not always Protestants, will have to be prepared to give consensus to what has been done with regard to the police, but we cannot have their consensus unless the Bill is in a form that they can accept, and they can see that there is no undercurrent running in the direction of bringing about the aim of the republican campaign--a united Ireland.
Mr. McNamara: This has been an interesting debate. With regard to Lords amendment No. 28, the Secretary of State mentioned the Equality Commission and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, and I should be grateful if, when the right hon. Gentleman replies, he could say more firmly that they will be consulted, rather than may be consulted.
I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) has left the Chamber because I wanted to address myself to some of his remarks and the political ramp that he accused the nationalists of being engaged in with regard to the cap badge and the flag. I am sorry that he has gone, not least because of the hint that he gave of a mutiny in the present RUC if a cap badge that it is not willing to accept is introduced. That was a dangerous thing for a party leader to say. He recalled the history of the 1920s and said that we should remember what happened then. The implications of that statement were stark and clear.
Mr. Donaldson: With all due respect, that is not what my right hon. Friend said. He referred to the new police service, not to the existing RUC, and he said that the members of the new police service may reject the cap badge. They will have representatives in the form of a federation. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that it is illegitimate for members employed in a police service to reject, through their federation, something that they find unacceptable?
Mr. McNamara: In no other force would it be acceptable. To question the uniform would be to defy the decision of the Secretary of State. What the right hon. Gentleman said was without the qualifications that we have just heard. He was specific and direct.
The right hon. Gentleman spoke about the spirit of the Good Friday agreement, and said that the changes in the cap badge and the flag were going against that agreement. He said that they were being pushed too hard; that there was a political ramp, a secret agenda. But annexe A of the Good Friday agreement refers to the Commission on Policing for Northern Ireland and states:
- Its proposals on policing should be designed to ensure that policing arrangements, including composition, recruitment, training, culture, ethos and symbols, are such that in a new approach Northern Ireland has a police service that can enjoy widespread support from, and is seen as an integral part of, the community as a whole.
Mr. Robert McCartney: The hon. Gentleman completely misrepresents the substance of that paragraph. The confidence of the entire community cannot be obtained by placating the minority at the expense of not obtaining the consent and approval of a majority.
Mr. McNamara: I understand what the hon. and learned Gentleman says, but he did not put his name to the document, or accept it on Good Friday; the right hon. Member for Upper Bann did. It states:
- Its proposals on policing should be designed to ensure that policing arrangements, including . . . ethos and symbols, are such that in a new approach Northern Ireland has a police service that can enjoy widespread support from, and is seen as an integral part of, the community as a whole.
We have seen in the course of this debate how such demands polarise opinion. We have seen that today in the defence and counter claims that have been made across the Floor of the House. We should remember that the Good Friday agreement--the right hon. Member for Upper Bann, alone among the Unionists present in the House, gave his assent to it, so I am sure that he will be delighted that the hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Donaldson) came rushing to his support--has the support of the majority of the population in Northern Ireland, and of the majority of the Unionist community there. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman should cease claiming that he has been sold down the river, or that this is a nationalist ramp. He should accept what he said that he would accept, which is in the Good Friday agreement.
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