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9 pm
Mr. McNamara: Let me put at ease the minds and stomachs of colleagues in the House and outside. My colleagues and I have no intention of forcing a Division on my amendment. That, however, does not take away from the seriousness with which we regard it.
Certain phrases in the Human Rights Commission report that I quoted at length earlier stand out. They include:
- The tutor's knowledge about human rights appeared to be weak.
- The training appeared to be done in a vacuum.
- The Commission found little evidence of training in international standards other than those in the ECHR or of benchmarking of progress through the training to that date.
Dr. Godman: May I raise a minor point? My hon. Friend might think it trivial, in which case I apologise. Do not the RUC officers serving with the United Nations international police force in Kosovo have to adhere to the UN code of conduct for law enforcement officials and the UN basic principles on the use of force and firearms?
Mr. McNamara: That is probably right. It is not a point that I have considered. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing my attention and that of the Minister to that point. No doubt the Minister will get a letter from the Box shortly saying who was right.
Mr. McNamara: Or wrong, or both. Factually wrong, but morally right, or vice versa--I am not certain.
Patten said that we should also look to the European convention, which was drawn from the international convention. The Council of Europe has made its own declaration on the police. In fact, it is being revised by the Council of Ministers at the Council of Europe. The Council of Europe is working closely on the matter.
The European declaration on the police was originally the work of the rapporteur of the Council of Europe, a member of the British Labour delegation in the 1970s, Mr. Watkinson. So there is a lot of basis for the code of ethics. The main point is that we do not have to see the European conventions in isolation from all other
international standards, particularly United Nations standards. People and policemen must be aware in their training that there is a broad idea of the natural law of justice in relation to policing that spreads beyond Europe and encompasses the whole world. Many nations in the world are prepared to accept it both for its morality and for the standards that it sets for good policing. I hope that when we have a revision--as we are bound to, after this report--of the contents of the curriculum and the teaching methods, the board will look outside what we have had so far, and outside the European convention, and realise that there is a world where a lot of people adopt policies some of which are at a higher level than those in the European convention, and that we should be aware of them and see how they operate.
Mr. George Howarth: I thank the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Mr. Öpik) for his support on the amendments, some of which were inspired by a debate that we had in Committee and elsewhere. I echo the praise that he voiced of the work of the Equality Commission. Last night, I met the chairman and other people associated with the commission. The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that the work that they are doing is very useful and gives us hope for the future that the important issue of equality, which is central to the Good Friday agreement, is receiving proper attention. No doubt when the occasion arises for the commission to be consulted, it will have something to say.
I am grateful for the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) has said that he does not intend to press his amendment to a Division. I assure him that, despite the concerns that he has voiced tonight and repeated in this debate, the Human Rights Commission will, quite properly, not be backward in coming forward when it comes to being consulted on the code of ethics. I know that my hon. Friend is familiar with some of the commissioners, and with Brice Dickson, the chief commissioner. It is clear that they are not people who would stand blushing on the sidelines; they ensure that when they are consulted, they have their say. I am sure that if they have any concerns, they will let us know about them.
I believe that my hon. Friend discussed the role of the RUC in Kosovo and whether it is caught by international human rights standards. We do not believe that those standards apply, but that is a very provisional view. As my hon. Friend correctly predicted, although I say no, there may well be a yes to follow, and if I am incorrect in giving him those assurances, I shall write to him.
I hope that my assurances will reassure my hon. Friend. I confirm that there will be provision in the future code of ethics to allow any alteration or change if it proves necessary.
Lords amendment No. 58 agreed to.
Clause 44
Lords amendment: No. 59, in page 21, line 27, at end insert--
("( ) In making regulations under this section, the Secretary of State shall have regard, in particular, to the need to secure that information is not disclosed contrary to the public interest.")
Mr. Ingram: I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Madam Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments Nos. 60 to 62, 64, 65, 67 and 138.
Mr. Ingram: I shall first discuss amendment No. 59, which deals with lay involvement in the recruitment process, and amendment No. 138. Amendment No. 59 obliges the Secretary of State to ensure, in recruitment regulations, that sensitive information is protected appropriately. Amendment No. 138 allows references to "the Board" in the recruitment provisions to be construed as reference to the Police Authority for Northern Ireland before the board replaces the authority. This is to enable the recruitment regulations to be progressed before the board is appointed.
Amendment No. 61 places a ceiling of 75 per cent. on the level to which the Secretary of State is permitted to aggregate the 50:50 quota. The issue generated much discussion in Committee in the House and in the other place, so it might be worthwhile taking time to explain why we have arrived at our conclusion.
The Bill allows for the 50:50 recruitment quota for police trainees to be adjusted for the purposes of recruiting police trainees in two sets of circumstances. First, a "set aside order" may be made when there is an insufficient number of candidates from either community background to fill the number of required posts--in effect, that means setting aside the 50:50 provision. Secondly, an "aggregation order" may be made when at least one such set aside order has been made in the previous three years--its purpose being to redress, or partly redress, any imbalance that has arisen as a result.
Ulster Unionists and Liberal Democrats pointed out to us that, in the absence of any safeguard, the Secretary of State could, in theory, adjust the quota under an aggregation order to permit 100 per cent. recruitment from members of either community background group--Catholic or non-Catholic. The amendment accordingly sets a limit of 75 per cent. on the aggregation power, thus ensuring that a minimum of 25 per cent. from either community background group are appointed. Amendment No. 62 is consequential on that.
I come to the amendments that will add new clauses to the Bill. Amendment No. 60 is designed to meet recommendations 127 and 128 of the Patten report that police officers serving outside the RUC should be encouraged to apply for the ranks above constable. The report particularly said that Catholic officers from Northern Ireland serving in police services elsewhere--especially those in more senior ranks--should be contacted and encouraged to apply for positions in the Northern Ireland police. So-called lateral entry to the RUC from other United Kingdom forces already takes place to a limited degree. Our aim is to enhance the use of such channels at all levels in the police service, including from the Garda Siochana.
Dr. Godman: I have recently met two senior officers in the RUC who were recruited from police forces in mainland Britain. Would it be possible for an officer in, for example, Strathclyde, to be seconded to the RUC for three or four years?
Mr. Ingram: I do not know the detailed provisions for that. However, the answer is probably yes if there is
agreement between the forces. For example, a police officer with particular expertise or knowledge of the investigation of fraud could be called in to meet a deficiency in a police service. A police officer from Strathclyde, from any other force in Great Britain or from the Garda Siochana could be seconded for his expertise in certain circumstances. I am sure that such interrelationships already exist. However, transfers on secondment may cause difficulties if the officers have to attest by means of different oaths. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point and I shall write to him if my explanation is not correct.I was describing how so-called lateral entry, including from the Garda Siochana, could take place. Such lateral entry will be based on selection and open competition. The fundamental principles of merit will be applied as Patten recommended. Amendment No. 65 is consequential on amendment No. 60. It makes the lateral entry provision temporary, subject to our triennial review and renewal.
Amendment No. 67 was tabled in response to an undertaking given in Standing Committee to consider female representation in the police. The RUC suffers a marked imbalance in terms of both community background and gender. Only 12.6 per cent. of police officers are women, a third of whom are in the part-time reserve.
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