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4.40 pm
Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst): I cannot make up my mind whether the hon. Member for Houghton and Washington, East (Mr. Kemp) is off-message or trailing for Tony. I shall seek to divide the House on the matter, so we shall soon find out whether the hon. Gentleman, who is always described in the media as being close to Tony, knows something that he is not telling us about or is seriously off-message and will not be close to Tony after today.
The proposal is as about as typical of new Labour as one can get. It is a mindless assault on tradition, our heritage and history, as well as a blundering and ill-considered attempt to sweep away things that are well understood, if not by the hon. Gentleman and his friends, at least by the vast majority of people in this country. Surely, the acid test of whether the current honours system is appropriate is the pleasure with which people accept honours. It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to patronise people who happily accept various honours, but he seems to have given no thought to those recipients who, when they accept, are honoured--and say so--and make no secret of the fact that they are delighted. They reveal the great pleasure that they take in being recognised in many different ways.
We heard a lot of nonsense about a class-ridden society. Surely, the fact that our new Speaker hails, as I do, from a tenement in Glasgow tells us that our society has long since left behind the blind prejudices that obsess the hon. Gentleman and his friends, and has become genuinely open. Our beloved Deputy Prime Minister used to serve drinks on a cruise liner, but that was no barrier to him achieving one of the highest offices in the land, and we must all welcome that. However, along comes the hon. Gentleman with his narrow, obsessive ideology, determined to sweep away things that are loved, respected and honoured throughout the country, including our well-established honours system. He then blunders in with something called the Order of the United Kingdom.
For goodness' sake, what is the point of doing that apart from sheer mindless destruction, for which the Government have become rather too well known? [Interruption.] The Government are prepared to sweep away large parts of our constitution and well-understood elements of our electoral arrangements, and they want to introduce confusing, muddled and irrelevant things. I heard the clack of hon. Members surrounding the hon. Member for Houghton and Washington talking about equality.
Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley): Fairness.
Mr. Forth: Or fairness, as the hon. Gentleman says. I should have thought that any system that requires judgment by one person on another will either be accepted as fair or condemned as unfair, almost regardless of what it does.
I am pleased that the hon. Member for Houghton and Washington, East said that his proposal would not affect military awards.
Mr. Forth: The hon. Gentleman must accept that gallantry awards inevitably require one person to judge other people's achievements and contributions. Any system of recognition requires that. I have not noticed any reticence from the Government about using the honours system, whether to award peerages to contributors to the Labour party or to the endless succession of luvvies who stream through No. 10 and go out smiling, having been given some sort of award. The hon. Gentleman's own Government, through their actions over the past three and a half years, have demonstrated that they are very keen on the existing awards system. I do not particularly blame them for that or for following in Lloyd George's footsteps, if that is how they feel that they should conduct themselves. I do not blame them for the luvvies either, to whom they are welcome as far as I am concerned.
The truth is that the measure reveals much more about the hon. Gentleman and the Labour party today than it does about the honours system. The hon. Gentleman has a twisted and bitter approach to these matters which simply is not shared by the thousands of people who, every year, happily accept well-deserved honours and recognition through our existing honours system.
Had the hon. Gentleman given us many examples of people who had been offended or upset by the offer of an honour, I might have been a bit more impressed, but he has not. He has come at this from an ideological point of view. He has demonstrated that he and his party are all about the destruction of our institutions, heritage, traditions and history. We must have none of it and I call on my right hon. and hon. Friends to reject this ill-thought-out and bitter motion today.
Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 23 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of public business):--
The House divided: Ayes 153, Noes 58.
AYES
Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Allan, Richard
Ashton, Joe
Atherton, Ms Candy
Baker, Norman
Ballard, Jackie
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bennett, Andrew F
Bermingham, Gerald
Best, Harold
Blears, Ms Hazel
Brake, Tom
Brand, Dr Peter
Breed, Colin
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burgon, Colin
Burstow, Paul
Butler, Mrs Christine
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Cann, Jamie
Cawsey, Ian
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Chidgey, David
Clapham, Michael
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cotter, Brian
Crausby, David
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Dalyell, Tam
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dismore, Andrew
Dobson, Rt Hon Frank
Donohoe, Brian H
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Efford, Clive
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Fearn, Ronnie
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gibson, Dr Ian
Gidley, Sandra
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Golding, Mrs Llin
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Hancock, Mike
Harris, Dr Evan
Healey, John
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Hinchliffe, David
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Iddon, Dr Brian
Illsley, Eric
Jenkins, Brian
Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)
Jones, Ms Jenny
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Kemp, Fraser
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
Kumar, Dr Ashok
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Lepper, David
Livsey, Richard
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Llwyd, Elfyn
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McDonnell, John
McFall, John
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Mitchell, Austin
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Olner, Bill
Organ, Mrs Diana
Pollard, Kerry
Pound, Stephen
Prosser, Gwyn
Rendel, David
Ruane, Chris
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Sanders, Adrian
Sawford, Phil
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Shipley, Ms Debra
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stunell, Andrew
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Tyler, Paul
Vis, Dr Rudi
Webb, Steve
Welsh, Andrew
White, Brian
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Winnick, David
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Ronnie Campbell and
Mr. Denis Murphy.
NOES
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Beggs, Roy
Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Bercow, John
Blunt, Crispin
Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia
Brazier, Julian
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Burns, Simon
Chapman, Sir Sydney
(Chipping Barnet)
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
(Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)
Fox, Dr Liam
Gale, Roger
Gill, Christopher
Gray, James
Green, Damian
Grieve, Dominic
Harvey, Nick
Hawkins, Nick
Hunter, Andrew
Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles
(Ross Skye & Inverness W)
Key, Robert
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Leigh, Edward
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Moss, Malcolm
Oaten, Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Randall, John
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence
St Aubyn, Nick
Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)
Swayne, Desmond
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Tyrie, Andrew
Waterson, Nigel
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Wilkinson, John
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Eric Forth and
Mr. Douglas Hogg.
Question accordingly agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Fraser Kemp, Mr. Ronnie Campbell, Mr. Lawrie Quinn, Mr. Alan Keen, Mr. Stephen Hepburn, Mr. Peter Kilfoyle, Mr. Chris Ruane, Mr. David Winnick and Mr. Bob Russell.
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