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Mr. Gray: The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Somerset levels. Most people accept that more money must be spent on flood defences, and I am sure that a large part of our debate will be about that. However, the Somerset levels are a natural flood plain, and water has always settled on them. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the moment we start to interfere with the natural flow of the water, we start to get floods elsewhere?
Mr. Bennett: That is a key issue with flooding. There are lots of places where flood plains used to flood year after year. In some cases that was part of the agricultural method, and farmers were disappointed if there was no flooding and they did not get a bit of high-fertility silt on their land. When I was a child in Manchester, the Mersey meadows were deliberately flooded every winter. If we were lucky, they froze after they were flooded and people could go ice skating. So long as the water was not very deep, they were a safe place to go.
Flood plains used to be used in that way, but in recent years planning permission has been given for people to build on them. In some cases, building on flood plains has gone ahead without the measures necessary to protect houses from flooding and divert water to an area where it can overflow. Like the Select Committee on Agriculture, our report recommended that the Environment Agency should have much greater powers to influence planning decisions to try to stop development on flood plains that could be disastrous for those people. People buying houses should be told if there is a chance of a flooding risk, but we should not make it impossible for people to sell houses in such areas; that issue needs to be explored. However, it is important that buyers know what the risk is.
It is possible to live in a reasonably satisfactory way in a house that floods fairly regularly, so long as the part of the house that is likely to flood is designed without electrics and has a floor covering of tiles, or something similar, that can be easily dealt with. It should be possible
to move furniture and other belongings above the level of the floods. Unfortunately, some people have bought new houses without being warned of the consequences, and we have to deal with that problem.We also have to ask whether flooding is increasing as the result not just of climate change, but also of the speed of run-off. We must think about houses and industrial premises, as well as places such as supermarket car parks, that are being built, not necessarily in areas that flood, but when rain falls, all that hard-standing allows it to run off a little bit more quickly. When we took evidence this week, we were assured that the Government were considering building regulations. Those regulations should be adapted so that places such as car parks are made porous and can absorb water almost like a sponge, stopping it from running straight into rivers. A lot of work must be done on examining the way in which water can be retained in new developments, especially in the drier parts of the country where, despite the recent weather, water shortages in summer are possible. It would be more logical for people to store water on their own premises, rather than suffer from floods during one part of the year and drought during another.
My hon. Friend the Minister needs to examine farming practices. Changes in those practices mean that ground that used to absorb large amounts of water at this time of year now allows it to run off. If one wants to put in a car park, one almost certainly needs planning permission, so it is slightly odd that someone who wants to change their agricultural practice from one that allows water to be absorbed to one that increases run-off does not need any such permission. The Government have been considering the idea of environmental guidance for farmers on such issues for nearly 15 years, and I hope that they will get a move on.
I have taken up too much of the House's time, but I want to say that Members should consider this useful report. The Environment Agency has taken on board some of our recommendations and I hope that in the next few years it will punch its full weight--its 10,000 or so employees and the £600 million that it spends--so that we can improve the environment in England and Wales and give leadership to the world in trying to make ours a more sustainable society.
Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal): I should declare an interest as chairman of Valpac, which is a non-profit-making organisation with responsibilities for recycling packaging. I come into contact with the Environment Agency in several ways, as I do regarding other business interests that are related to the environment. I know a bit about the subject from the consumer's point of view. I hope that Members agree that we ought to have that kind of interest so that we can bring to the House the knowledge that comes from a passionate belief in the issues and their importance.
The Environment Agency is crucial to the way in which Britain deals with the environment. I was the Minister responsible for setting it up, so I suppose that I must take both praise and blame. There is a good deal of blame to be apportioned, but that must be put in context, as the agency is a thoroughly proper organisation that does an essential job holistically. Prior to its establishment, a series of organisations did different things in different
ways and were often unable to do their job properly as the result of overlap and, more importantly, gaps in their work.I am sure that the Select Committee agrees that the Environment Agency is essential both in the nature of its work and the coverage that it offers. Indeed, that is made clear in the report, which makes a number of recommendations and remarks constantly on the commitment of those who work for the agency. I hope that the House will not lose sight of the important fact that the agency is stuffed full of people with remarkable commitment who want to get things right and who work hard on emergency tasks--that was especially apparent during the recent floods--and on many other matters. I had a sense that the report was talking about people with hands-on experience, not the management higher up. However, from top to bottom, people throughout the organisation have set a remarkable example of commitment.
I wish to emphasise the changes that I should like to see, but I should like to stress that the organisation, in the main, does its job extremely well and is well worth supporting. Those of us who are concerned with management must begin with the organisation's management. I should like to echo what the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) said about matrix management, which is an ugly phrase. I am not sure whether anyone really knows what it means but, in some areas, it means that staff members are expected to do a range of jobs. They spend a few hours a week here and a few hours there on jobs for which they say that they have received training although, very often, those jobs are beyond their technical experience and ability. That is not a criticism of individuals. However, the structure causes real problems, in that those outside the Environment Agency who have an interest in part of the matrix find it hard to discover whether they are getting the total interest and commitment that they expect.
I shall give an example from my own experience, in relation to which I have already declared an interest. The packaging directive is an example of the vital part played by the European Union in dealing with the environment in this country. In general, it is extremely good, setting standards and targets while leaving nations to decide how best to achieve them. That means that we need the maximum coverage of companies producing packaging, if the burden is not to fall unfairly on those that obey the law and not on those that do not.
The key player in that process is the Environment Agency. Its task is to discover the people who are not doing their job properly, those who ought to register but have not done so, and those who are paying fees not for what they actually produce, but for a lower number that happens to be convenient for them. The sums involved are large, and avoidance is tempting. The fines imposed on those found to be avoiding payment are ludicrous compared with the savings to be made.
Major companies do not want the opprobrium of being found to be incompetent or dishonest. Much of the process is, therefore, self-policing. I return to the sort of example that the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish put forward when he was talking about landfill operators. The best companies do the job properly anyway, because the cost to them of doing otherwise would be not in a fine but in the effect on their public reputation. However,
many major companies are paying the cost of the packaging put on the market by those who avoid making the contribution required by law.I remain to be convinced that the Environment Agency is taking enthusiastic enough action against those who break the law, especially in relation to finding those people. That leads one to ask why the Environment Agency is unable to show in detail what it does with the fees that are paid to it. Fees, for example, are paid by those with an obligation to recycle and re-use packaging. Those fees are supposed to cover the costs incurred by the agency in carrying out its requirements under the law. The system is supposed to be self-financing.
If the system is self-financing, it is reasonable to ask that those who pay the money ought to be able to see where the money goes. If they are dissatisfied with the service provided, the agency's first defence should be: "This is the money that you have paid; this is what we are doing with it. Now you can see that we are doing it properly."
The first few years since the packaging regulations were introduced have been difficult, because the relevant figures have not been forthcoming. I am sure that the Minister will do his best to defend the Environment Agency on this matter, but I do not think that the figures were made available even to the Government. Those who are paying the piper and think that they know which tune ought to be played do not know what happens to their money, nor are they able to ensure that the tune is being properly played.
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