| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Miss Widdecombe: I am having difficulty following the right hon. Gentleman's argument. He seems to be arguing that if proceedings on a previous stage of the Bill have been thorough, he can dispense with thoroughness at later stages. Given that every stage sees changes to a Bill, and given that 123 amendments affected the present stage of the Bill, will the right hon. Gentleman please justify not guillotines in general, but this guillotine on this stage of this Bill?
Mr. Straw: I am seeking to do so. It is a fair bet that whatever I say, unless I withdraw the motion, the right hon. Lady will not be convinced by my argument--but sometimes she gets the point in the end, albeit a bit late.
In this instance, the point is simple, and has been discussed at length. Many of the amendments relate to issues that were discussed at length in the House or in Committee. Amendments have been introduced to deliver undertakings made in the House. If the right hon. Lady wants to have an exchange about the number of occasions when the House has considered Lords amendments when the debate has been subject to a guillotine, I could go through the list--but I think we should take that as read.
In addition to constraining the circumstances in which the so-called Executive override can be used, and the important related matter of removing the discretionary element in the public interest test, there are important Lords amendments that, if accepted by the House, will improve the Bill. They will do so by removing the powers to add to the list of exemptions by order and, importantly, by reversing the way in which the public interest balancing exercise is carried out. They will introduce a duty for Government Departments and other public authorities to assist those who are seeking information and to help them make their applications. They will introduce other improvements in the way in which both factual and statistical information is dealt with.
I refer the House to amendments Nos. 26 and 27 to clause 33, which we shall move on to. They go some way to meet concerns about the availability of statistical information--I accept that they do not go the whole way, but I hope to explain why not. The changes that will ensure a better supply and availability of factual and statistical information need to be seen alongside something that is not in the Bill but which represents a huge change--the reform that we as a Government have introduced to the national statistical service, together with the establishment of an independent statistical commission, to ensure that never again do we have the scandal of the 1980s, where in the face of mounting unemployment the then Government changed the definition of unemployment 18 times, to massage the figures downwards.
Mr. Forth: The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the many important and substantial amendments on the amendment paper for the House to consider. Will he explain why the House is expected to give proper consideration to the amendments over a period that will almost certainly be less than four hours? I accept his point about the number of amendments and their importance, but will he tell us how we can do justice to them in the pathetic amount of time that he is allowing?
Mr. Straw: I do not accept the right hon. Gentleman's description of the time available. We have from now until midnight to consider the amendments. Although there are many amendments, the right hon. Gentleman, as an experienced parliamentarian, knows that they are grouped by the Chair. There are nine groups of amendments, and of those--
Mr. Shepherd: The amendments are grouped by the Minister in charge.
Mr. Straw: Yes, even better. They are grouped by the Minister in charge of the Bill with a little guidance from the Clerks. In only three of the nine groups are there amendments to amendments, and I think that only three groups will prove controversial.
Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Straw: I shall do so shortly. Then I want to talk briefly about the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill, and then other right hon. and hon. Members can contribute to the debate.
Mr. McLoughlin: When the decision was made to move the timetable motion, did the Home Secretary know that two statements would also be made, which would eat into the time originally allocated?
Mr. Straw: No. I think that the decision was made towards the end of last week. I knew that there would be a statement on revenue support grant and associated matters. I did not know until 12.50 pm that there would be a statement on climate change following the meeting at The Hague.
I shall now make progress on the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill.
Mr. Forth: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In the light of the Home Secretary's comment,
would you at this stage accept a manuscript amendment to the motion to allow additional time for consideration--time in proportion, at least, to the time taken by the second statement, of which the Home Secretary was unaware when he judged how much time should be made available?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Sylvia Heal): I am sorry to disappoint the right hon. Gentleman, but I am not in a position to do that.
Mr. Straw: I shall now deal briefly with the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill, which will be addressed in greater detail by the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin), who will wind up the debate.
The Bill completed its passage through the Commons last June after 69 hours of debate; the other place completed its consideration after a further 102 hours of debate. As the House knows, there are 281 amendments to the Bill, dealing with 16 separate subjects. The Bill will make important provision to grant new rights of access on foot to mountains, moor, heath, down and common land in England and Wales. It will improve the complex law relating to rights of way, significantly strengthen the law on nature conservation and the protection of wildlife and enhance the protection of areas of outstanding natural beauty.
In both Houses, provisions relating to the new right of access to open countryside have proved to be the most controversial aspect of the Bill, and we understand that. However, the principle is not controversial, and the Opposition did not vote against either Second or Third Reading in either House. At issue is the balance between the new access right, and the ability of owners and occupiers of access land to manage that land to best advantage. Those who are familiar with the measure will know that a great deal of effort has gone into determining where that balance should rest.
Many of the amendments to the access provisions made in the other place address the concerns, often highly practical, of landowners and managers. We have listened carefully to those concerns; when we have been persuaded that they are justified, we have made the necessary changes. Some of those changes reflect concerns expressed in Committee and on Report in the House of Commons. The debate on the access provisions themselves did move forward in the Lords.
Mr. Hogg: As the Home Secretary knows, the timetable for the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill requires debate to end at 10 o'clock on the allotted day. So that the House is better informed about how much time it will have to consider the 283 amendments, will he tell us whether we are to have any statements tomorrow, and if so, how many?
Mr. Straw: I know of no statements due to be made tomorrow, but the truth is that I cannot guarantee that none will be made tomorrow.
There has been plenty of consultation on all matters covered by the Bill. The statutory agencies--the Countryside Agency, English Nature and the Countryside Council for Wales--have been fully involved, as have
many non-governmental organisations such as the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the Ramblers Association and the Country Landowners Association. Many useful ideas have emerged from the national countryside access forum, which brings together representatives of many of the key interests.The parliamentary process has worked openly and well in respect of the Bill, although it has taken time: 170 hours is at the top end of the amount of time given to such Bills, whether by the current Government or by previous ones. Everyone knows that there are only a few days left before Prorogation and it is the Government's submission that there are no issues in the Bill on which we need to disagree with the Lords.
Mr. Peter Brooke (Cities of London and Westminster): Will the Home Secretary give way?
Mr. James Paice (South-East Cambridgeshire): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Straw: No. I am about to finish and I have already given way many times.
I have acknowledged that guillotines are to be avoided whenever possible. They are regrettable, but I believe that the guillotine on the two Bills is entirely justified. We shall, no doubt, hear the Opposition express the usual protests, as is their right, but I ask the House to bear in mind the scores and scores of guillotine motions that were moved under the Conservative Government.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |