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Mr. Winnick: For reasons that I have never agreed with, we have always had long summer recesses. I have argued that we should return in September, but I have not noticed much enthusiasm for that from Conservative Members, and certainly not from those on either Front Bench. If the hon. Gentleman checks up on what happened in 1992, he will discover that we broke up--if my memory is correct--in the middle of July. We had two extra weeks and the recess was longer than it was this year.
Mr. St. Aubyn: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for bringing us on to the historical record. Labour Members have told us what a well-behaved Opposition they were, but people who were in Parliament at the time have a different memory of how business was conducted. The fact is that from 1992 onwards there was a slimmer majority and there were other means of putting pressure on the Executive. The tried and tested method of putting pressure on an Executive with a large majority is that Opposition Members may scrutinise every detail of a Bill before it is allowed to pass through this place.
Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South): The hon. Gentleman referred to how well the previous Opposition claimed to behave, but in 1992 they were so anaemic that they refused to vote against a guillotined Bill that a handful of Ulster Unionists and some Tory and Labour Members were scrutinising and that was being imposed on the people of Northern Ireland without their consent.
Mr. St. Aubyn: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that example of the hopeless way in which Labour Members opposed the previous Government.
I am concerned that the collective amnesia of Labour Members also extends to a collective amnesia among Ministers about affairs for which they are responsible. Ministers spend far too much time cocooned in their offices surrounded by civil servants who tell them what they want to hear. It is only when they come to the Chamber that they hear the blunt truth. If the Ministers who are on the Front Bench tonight were to listen for a minute, they would hear a few blunt truths.
Just 12 days ago, I challenged the Prime Minister on the Labour party's conduct in putting the Freedom of Information Bill through another place and the way in which Labour Members there, with the support of Liberal peers, voted to give Ministers a right to deny access to
information instead of giving the people the right to freedom of information just the night before. The Prime Minister seemed to be affronted that any Conservative Member of the House could dare to challenge the Government's credentials on the issue of freedom of information, but it will go down in the annals of this place that on a Bill about freedom of information we are not allowed freedom of discussion. That is the scandal of tonight's debate. Many Conservative Members have a consistent record of promoting and defending the principle of freedom of information.I am even more alarmed by the Prime Minister's letter of 20 November in which he responded to detailed points that I raised to highlight the serious consequences of the Government's neutering of the Freedom of Information Bill. In the context of important information about the health hazards posed by building new incinerators, the Prime Minister said that the allegation that officials had hidden information on health and incinerator emissions was false. I was referring to an article in The Guardian on 10 November which began--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman did not hear me call another hon. Gentleman to order. There is a limit to how much time he can use to give his example. He has made his point and he needs to address his remarks to the motion.
Mr. St. Aubyn: My point is that Ministers are so out of touch with what is going on in the real world with regard to the lack of freedom of information that they would greatly benefit from a proper debate on each group of amendments tonight so that they realise the full import of how they are neutering the Freedom of Information Bill.
I was pointing out not only that the Prime Minister's statement was false but that the allegations were made by Labour Members, not Conservative Members.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is moving back to the subject that I asked him to move off. He should choose his words carefully and perhaps withdraw that last remark.
Mr. St. Aubyn: I would be happy to withdraw any remarks if they are against the norms of the House, but it is difficult to reconcile a factual statement by the Prime Minister with evidence from both sides of the House and statements from Labour Members that directly contradict him.
My point goes to the heart of the Government's problem. They are selling us assurance after assurance on Bill after Bill, and we are finding it harder and harder to accept a single word of what they say. When we examine the evidence and the facts behind what they are saying, we realise that the truth is often diametrically opposed to what they have told us.
I shall spend a few minutes on the other Bill that is to be guillotined tonight--the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) said, we do not even know to which sets of amendments the guillotine will apply. The set of amendments dealing with vehicular rights of way greatly affects my constituents. I know that many Opposition Members and some on the Government
side are still not content with the extent to which the Government have revised the Bill in another place, and we want a full and proper debate on that important issue.By guillotining the Bill today, without knowing whether we will have even a minute to discuss those amendments tomorrow and to interrogate Ministers on the basis on which they have amended their Bill in respect of vehicular rights of way, we are denied a key opportunity to put right an injustice that affects home owners across the country as a result of a quirk in the law.
I should be grateful if, in his response tonight, the Minister could give us an assurance about how that matter will be dealt with. I see him shaking his head, which exactly proves my point--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I suspect that the Minister is shaking his head because he does not want to respond to a question that I have already told the hon. Gentleman he should not be putting.
Mr. St. Aubyn: That is most distressing, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We are being asked to vote blind on the guillotine motion. As my right hon. Friend said, we are being asked to give a blank cheque to the Government so that we cannot hold them to account at all.
Yet again, we see how hon. Members are being neutered by guillotine motions. It is now only in another place that any change in the law takes place. Here, we are not allowed even to debate and interrogate Ministers. We are told by them that we must shut up and put up.
I hope that in the course of the main debate on the amendments, Ministers will deal more fully with the points that I have raised. The allegations against Ministers could not be more serious. Unless there is time for them to answer those allegations fully and comprehensively tonight, we will have proved once more how these guillotine motions are depriving the British people of their right to hold the Government to account.
7.42 pm
Tony Wright (Cannock Chase): I intended firmly to say nothing during this part of the debate, and I am sorry to have relented, but I do so only under provocation and for less than a minute.
Although I admire the shameless energy of some Opposition Members, the naive question persists: why on earth are we spending all this time talking about our inability to discuss matters, whereas if we took a little less time, that acre of space would open up--
Tony Wright: I will not give way--and we could discuss all the matters which, we are told, are of extreme importance?
When in government, the party now in opposition strenuously opposed everything to do with freedom of information. Despite Sir Richard Scott's report and the report of an all-party Select Committee with a Conservative majority, which recommended that we should move from a code to an Act in this area, that was opposed by the Conservatives when in government.
When suddenly they announce their conversion to that cause, against their history, and announce their deep desire to speak about all these important issues, yet spend all their time preventing the House from discussing all the important issues, it is difficult to take them seriously.It is true that Bills should not be guillotined. It is true that that is a democratic outrage. It is true that 120-odd amendments should not be presented for discussion in scarcely four hours. It is an outrage this time, and it was an outrage last time it happened. It is an outrage under the present Government, and it was an outrage under the previous Government. It has been an outrage for as long as anyone here can remember.
The real indictment of this place is that nothing has been done about that, because on such occasions hon. Members would rather spend their time getting into a great froth about the absurdity of our procedures than reforming them. We have hour upon hour of debate, or of the depressing spectacle that passes for debate, going through the ritual whose words we all know by heart, to prevent us from discussing matters that we are supposed to discuss. The solution is a better legislative timetable so that that does not happen, and procedural reform to make sure that we discuss issues properly. Because I want to get on with that now, I shall sit down.
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