| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
7.45 pm
Mr. Damian Green (Ashford): I listened carefully to all the contributions to the debate from the Government side. I shall deal immediately with the point made by the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Tony Wright). He is, of course, right. The time that we are spending discussing the guillotine motion is time that we will not be able to spend discussing the Freedom of Information Bill, unless our opposition to the guillotine is supported by enough honourable--I mean that both formally and non-formally--Members on the Government Back Benches. Given everything that the hon. Gentleman said in his short and pithy speech, I assume that he will join us in the Lobby this evening to oppose the guillotine motion.
The other Government contributions to the debate have not made it clear whether the shambles into which the Government's legislative programme has fallen is a result of their contempt for Parliament or of their sheer incompetence. I conclude that, sadly, it is a pernicious mixture of the two. The result of that rather unsavoury cocktail of arrogance and incompetence, characteristic of the Government, is what we now face: national guillotine week, as it was rightly called by my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe).
Every debate that we have this week will be guillotined. None of the important Bills that the House is to discuss this week will receive full scrutiny. The speech by the hon. Member for Cannock Chase gave me hope that there may be some residual feelings about the importance of parliamentary democracy among those on the Government Back Benches. If so, I hope that they feel a faint scintilla of shame about the proceedings this evening.
There is a peculiar Noah's ark quality about the motion--the guillotines are being brought in two by two. I am surprised only that the Government have not given us what their business managers would no doubt regard as the ultimate package deal: four guillotines in one debate.
The Home Secretary made the extraordinary assertion that because the Freedom of Information Bill had been extensively amended at every stage as a result of the scrutiny that it had received, it might not need long debate this evening. Simple logic suggests that if parliamentary scrutiny improved the Bill to which he is putting his name, he should encourage more parliamentary scrutiny, not less. With that simple suggestion, the Home Secretary blew a hole in his basic argument.
I was fascinated and appalled by the speech from the Liberal Democrat Benches by the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler), who said that, on guillotine debates, we should all read speeches into the record, no one should take interventions, as they might introduce an element of debate to our proceedings, and it was all very tiresome that we had to have parliamentary debate at all--
Mr. Green: Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I give way.
Mr. Tyler: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is misrepresenting what I said. May I ask him whether the Conservatives were offered by the Government an agreed programme motion, so that we could have had a genuine debate on the issues that concerned us? That was never offered to me, and may never have been offered to the Conservatives. If so, the Government stand accused of hypocrisy, because they talk about better arrangement of our business, but are not prepared to offer it to us.
Mr. Green: I can speak only for the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill, for which I am responsible. I am not aware of any such offer being made to us. I cannot speak about the Freedom of Information Bill--[Interruption]--but I am assured from a sedentary position that no such offer was made. I am happy to agree with the hon. Member for North Cornwall that the Government stand accused and convicted of hypocrisy. I am grateful to him for pointing that out.
The Home Secretary sought to evade the extraordinary nature of these guillotine motions, given the two statements that we had today and the possible statements tomorrow. The point has been well made by several of my right hon. and hon. Friends that it is possible to table a guillotine motion that provides a certain time for debate, so that anything that happens earlier in the parliamentary day does not eat into time under the guillotine. Instead, the Government have chosen to introduce a more pernicious guillotine motion that merely sets an end time. Statements that come earlier in the day, which are in the control of the Government, can be used to destroy the possibility of debate on important parts of the Freedom of Information Bill and the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill.
Right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House have said that it is expected that we shall receive a statement on the rural White Paper tomorrow. I do not think that I am breaking a state secret when I say that journalists have been calling us today about it. I know that the "Today" programme has made its dispositions for tomorrow morning. The Minister may want to clear up the ambiguity. Will he confirm that we shall have a statement on the rural White Paper tomorrow? I shall give way if he wishes to confirm that. Perhaps he might like
to do so when he replies. That would tell us how many hours of debate we shall have on the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill tomorrow. It is a shame--
Mr. Forth: Does my hon. Friend agree that that would be a small item of freedom of information? It seems bizarre that Ministers are prepared to sit on the Treasury Bench during this debate on the Freedom of Information Bill and gratuitously withhold simple and basic information that is germane to the conduct of our business this evening and tomorrow.
Mr. Green: My right hon. Friend is correct. Indeed, the situation is even worse. Information may be being withheld from the House, but it is not being withheld from anyone outside. The media know what is going on. It is only the House that is not allowed to be told what is happening.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald comprehensively destroyed the case for a guillotine motion on the Freedom of Information Bill. That being so, I shall deal with why a guillotine motion is wrong and inappropriate for the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill. I shall do so by examining the various reasons why it might be necessary to curtail debate on the Bill, to ascertain whether any one of them holds water.
Despite the hopes of Labour class warriors, especially those of the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick), the Opposition have been entirely constructive throughout on the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill. We oppose parts of it and support other parts. Its very name lets us know that it is rather uncomfortable portmanteau Bill that is designed to try to put together provisions on access to the countryside, which we oppose, with provisions to improve the rights-of-way network and wildlife protection, which we strongly support.
The hon. Member for Walsall, North may not have participated in earlier debates, but I am happy to confirm that we have always thought that part I was badly thought out and wrong. We did not vote against it, however, on Second or Third Reading in either House, because we thought that other parts of the Bill were leading in the right direction. We have sought consistently to improve the Bill throughout its consideration in both Houses, and we have had some success in that regard.
The first reason for a guillotine motion--an irreconcilable clash of principles--does not apply. The Opposition have not adopted that approach on Second or Third Reading. Secondly, the Government could argue that a guillotine motion should be introduced because of filibustering. No one has suggested that the Opposition have filibustered at any stage. Labour Members who appear sceptical should consider what the lead Minister, the Minister for the Environment, said in Committee:
- I am grateful to all members of the Committee, not least to the Opposition. I pay tribute to those on the Opposition Front Bench, who dealt with the Bill extremely well. They never filibustered and allocated time tightly and well, concentrating on the key points.--[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 23 May, c. 860.]
Mr. Green: I shall certainly give way to my hon. Friend, who was included in that compliment.
Mr. Paice: Does my hon. Friend agree that, contrary to what the hon. Member for Cannock Chase
(Tony Wright) said, whatever happens during the debate on the motion, even if it were taken forthwith, will not add one moment to the debate on the Lords amendments on the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill?
Mr. Green: That is an extremely good point. The Government cannot hide behind the filibustering argument.
The third possible reason that the Government could bring forward for employing a guillotine motion is that the Bill did not need significant alteration. That argument would not withstand the most cursory scrutiny. The House will consider 281 Government Lords amendments tomorrow. That demonstrates the state of the Bill when it left the House. In addition, Opposition Front Benchers and Back Benchers have tabled amendments. There will be about 300 amendments in all.
If the Minister will confirm what the world knows, which is that we shall have a statement tomorrow, we shall know that the House will be allowed about one minute to discuss each amendment. That is outrageous. To help my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), the amendments will be divided into 16 groups. We shall have less than half an hour per group. Throughout, the Bill has been badly drafted and impractical. It is better now than it was but it should be better still. It will not be, however, because the House will be denied proper debate tomorrow.
Scrutiny of the Bill has brought about improvements. The amendments that we shall consider tomorrow will make that obvious. In Committee, the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, who will reply to the debate, talked about the important issue of the control of dogs. He said:
- On balance, I am not convinced of the need to specify the length of the leads.--[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 11 April 2000; c. 268.]
- short lead means a lead of fixed length and of not more than 2 metres.
The fourth possible reason that the Government could advance for a guillotine motion is that nothing significant has been introduced into the Bill since it left the House. Nothing could be further from the truth. The section on areas of outstanding natural beauty was deliberately held back from the House and introduced in another place. We were asking for that section throughout. Labour Members tabled amendments in Committee, some of which we supported. At every stage the Minister said, "Hang on. The section is coming." Only when we debated Third Reading did he reveal that the section would be introduced in another place.
The Bill was a manifesto commitment. Labour knew for two and a half years that it wanted to introduce it. It was disgraceful to wait to introduce a key part of it until it reached another place.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |