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Mr. Darling: The tragedy is that the cost of picking up the pieces left by the Tories falls on us. It does not fall on the Government or the country, but on individuals who pay contributions in their taxes. People are paying dearly for the 18 years in which the Tories were in power, and we had to clear up the mess that the Conservatives left.
My hon. Friend also asked about the Department. When I became Secretary of State, I was struck by the fact that the DSS was in grave need of an overhaul, basically because its organisation had not changed for 20 or 30 years. Its Byzantine structure made it difficult to organise things, and the relationship between the Department and its agencies needed to be changed. We are putting those changes in place and I hope that we are now getting a tighter organisation.
It was also necessary to replace information technology systems so that front-line staff could be kept up to date on policy and know what it is. Once again, however, the problem is lack of investment, which has been a common theme. At Prime Minister's Question Time, one Member after another complained about the lack of investment under the Tories in the rail system and other services. We have now made money available to replace the Department's IT system. The Conservatives would put all that at risk with their £16 billion pledge to cut public expenditure.
Mr. Derek Twigg (Halton): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), on today's statement and on the work that they and others have done to bring it about.
Today's Opposition statement was probably one of the most disgraceful that I have heard in my time in Parliament. The Opposition did not apologise and say, "Sorry, we have some regrets." Instead, they seemed to regret the fact that they had been found out. Does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State agree that there was pensions mis-selling under the Tories? He has now sorted out the debacle that they caused back in 1986. There is now more investment for pensions and the mis-selling of pensions has been sorted out. The dividing lines are clear: the Tories do not care about pensions, but the Labour party does.
Mr. Darling: My hon. Friend is right. The matter is not just about the mis-selling of pensions or the inherited SERPS scandal, because the Tories have learned nothing yet. Their proposals to begin privatising the basic state pension will mean that many people under 30, who should not go into funded pensions, will be mis-sold pensions. We would have to pay the cost of that. Indeed, we know
that it will cost between £5 billion and £14 billion to begin the process of privatisation. In addition, the Conservative party must explain to 16-year-olds why they would have to pay £10 a week just to buy back the pensions that it would take away.
Mr. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire): I do not know if there is a doctor in the House who can tell us whether, physiologically, if one has two brains, then one has no sense of shame. My right hon. Friend's planned root and branch reform of the Department is welcome. However, does it include forms, websites, and training manuals so that when legislation changes in future, we can check whether the information that the Department provides is accurate, comprehensive, free of gobbledegook and written in plain English? Will that be audited externally and independently?
Mr. Darling: We do need to take steps to make sure that information that is given to the public and any policy changes are communicated effectively and in a way that people can understand. We are doing that and have now got the necessary investment to replace antiquated IT systems so as to produce the service that people want. It is important that Governments should be honest about what they do and, if they make changes to pensions, they should tell the public. Whatever else they do, they should not put people in a position in which they do not have adequate pension cover. If we had not made changes when we came to office, nearly a third of working people heading for retirement would be dependent on benefit.
As a result of changes we made in the long term and the short term, we are tackling pensioner poverty and ensuring that more pensioners will be able to retire on a decent income. My announcement today means that at long last there is justice for the millions of pensioners who lost out very badly under the Tories.
Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch): The Secretary of State obviously enjoyed making some party political comments this afternoon. Does he accept the verdict of the Public Administration Committee, which said that his own Government were responsible for perpetuating the matter and for making an already unsatisfactory situation worse by neglecting issues between 1997 and 1999? Would not his failure to admit that show that the Government are keen to pass responsibility on to everyone else? Their basic approach is to say, "Not me, guv."
Mr. Darling: I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman is distressed when political points are made in the House of Commons. That is an inevitable consequence of political parties being here. I remember, before he lost his seat at the election before last, that he was one of the most strident advocates of Thatcherism at that time. I am sure that he voted with great enthusiasm for the measure to take money away from pensioners and not to tell them about it. I make no apology for the fact that the Government have looked at the problem, listened to people and, above all, put the situation right in a fair and workable way. The Tories could never have done that.
Mr. Mark Todd (South Derbyshire): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on two matters: first, on an excellent statement, which responded fully to concerns that had been expressed; and secondly, on the
process he followed. He listened carefully to trenchant criticisms of the proposal in the first place--some of them were made on the day of his statement--learned from them and chose to change his mind. He is to be complimented on that. A key outcome of the approach will be the provision of better information for pensioners about any change in policy, which is a course that I urged at that time. Does he agree?
Mr. Darling: I do agree with my hon. Friend, but I add a further point. During the past few months, there has been a tendency, particularly among the Conservatives, to say that the whole matter was somehow the fault of civil servants. It is not, and it was not. Political responsibility must lie with the Government in office at the time. I accept responsibility for anything that happens during the term of this Labour Government, including the time I have been Secretary of State. However, I also accept responsibility for putting the situation right. The situation was a scandal--it has cost billions of pounds and millions of pensioners could have lost out. We are putting it right and are determined to ensure that it does not happen again. The previous Government could never have done that--they would not face up to the problems they caused, they deliberately failed, year after year, to tell people what was happening and they did absolutely nothing about the situation.
Mr. Dale Campbell-Savours (Workington): When councillors in the 1970s and 1980s were negligent, they were surcharged and forced, by law, to pay the debt from their own pockets. Some of them were bankrupted. In light of this costly inheritance--the report makes that clear--and the negligence of Conservative Ministers in the previous Government who are responsible for the debt that our taxpayers have to pay today, how about changing the law on surcharge? That would involve those Ministers paying out of their pockets, because they are responsible.
Mr. Darling: Perhaps we should send the bill to the treasurer of the Conservative party and ask him to pay it.
Dr. George Turner (North-West Norfolk): I congratulate the Secretary of State on his announcement, which the 23,000 pensioners in Norfolk will applaud even if they will not personally benefit from it. Will he pass on to the Chancellor of the Exchequer our recognition of the fact that the economy that the Government are delivering allows us to make decisions, including this one, in an atmosphere in which public services are being improved, not cut? That has, I am sure, played an important part in the settlement's generosity.
My right hon. Friend knows from correspondence from my constituents that many pensioners are proud of their independence. They will welcome the fact that there will be a division in his Department to deal separately with issues affecting pensioners. Will separate letterheads be used? Independent pensioners feel that they worked all their life without having to take state aid, and they should recognise that they are entitled to a pension--they do not need to go with begging bowl in hand to claim it.
Mr. Darling: My hon. Friend makes a good point. Part of the problem for the Department of Social Security was that it did not have a clear focus on the people whom it was meant to serve. Our efforts to help people into work
are different from the services that we are trying to provide for the elderly. The organisation for pensioners will be distinct in every sense from the working age and child elements. During the next few years, we will introduce improvements to ensure that pensioners receive their entitlements and gain the information that they need to enable them to make sensible planning decisions. That has not happened in the past.My hon. Friend the Member for North-West Norfolk (Dr. Turner) made another good point. It is precisely because of prudent management of the economy and the stable conditions that have been achieved that we can sort out the current mess in a way that is satisfactory to the great majority of pensioners. The previous Government could not have done that, as they did not have the necessary means. We have those means and are able to take action within the prudent plans set out by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
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