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Mr. Salmond: The most controversial donations were not from the diaspora but from people with no connection with Scotland, England, Ireland or Wales, who sought to gain advantage in the United Kingdom political system.
Will the Under-Secretary answer a straight question? Why, under the Bill, is it right for an expatriate Irishman to support Sinn Fein financially, but illegal for an expatriate Scot to support the Scottish National party, which has a 70-year record of attachment to the peaceful democratic process? How can that be right?
Mr. O'Brien: There is public anxiety about foreign donations, even when the donors have some contact with Scotland, England or Wales. We are trying to tackle that and to improve standards in public life. We therefore need to pass measures such as those in the Bill. The debate has made it clear that circumstances in Northern Ireland are manifestly different from those in Scotland, England and Wales.
The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan also asked whether we were satisfied that the Bill complied with the European convention on human rights. We are satisfied; we have certified the Bill to that effect. The House remains master of its own destiny; it will not automatically be overruled by the Human Rights Act 1998. Courts may issue a declaration of incompatibility but the House remains sovereign in relation to the legislation that it passes.
Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot): Will the Under- Secretary give way?
Mr. O'Brien: I shall not give way; I want to make progress, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me.
I want to consider the important contribution of the right hon. Member for Upper Bann. He asked several questions, and I shall do my best to deal with some of them. He asked what was the basis in the Good Friday agreement for treating Northern Ireland differently. I accept that his understanding of the agreement in general, of the specific detail and of the subsequent negotiations is much greater than mine. However, there is recognition of the need for the southern Ireland Government and the UK Government to accept that, whatever the issues of sovereignty, southern Ireland is clearly interested in the future of Northern Ireland, including its political process.
Mr. O'Brien: I shall not give way, if my hon. Friend will forgive me.
There are special circumstances in Northern Ireland. The right hon. Member for Upper Bann is First Minister in a Government that includes Ministers who have close links with the south.
11 pm
Mr. McNamara: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Minister keeps referring to "southern Ireland". Does he mean Clare island, or does he mean the Republic of Ireland, as he should in terms of recognition of an independent country?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Sylvia Heal): That is a matter for general debate, not a matter for the Chair.
Mr. O'Brien: I assure my hon. Friend that I am referring to the Republic of Ireland.
The right hon. Member for Upper Bann asked whether it was feared that the Government of the Republic would provide money to influence the outcome of a referendum. Let me make it clear that we would not welcome an attempt by any Government to influence the outcome of a referendum in the United Kingdom--whether on the euro or on any other issue--by giving large amounts to a particular political party.
May I deal with the matter in a slightly different way? Clause 105 provides for the Electoral Commission to allocate a grant to a designated umbrella organisation on each side of any referendum campaign. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that there would be limits on expenditure in any referendum in Northern Ireland. The impact of any foreign donations would therefore be limited to some extent. I hope that that reassures the right hon. Gentleman somewhat, although I realise that I have not been able to convince him on every point.
The right hon. Member for Bracknell (Mr. MacKay) said--and to an extent I do not disagree--that we should seek to treat Northern Ireland like Great Britain, except when the case is proved for treating it differently. Whether the case is proved for the right hon. Gentleman or for me may well be a point of difference between us. We say that particular circumstances must apply there; the right hon. Gentleman does not necessarily accept all the arguments.
I think that, in terms of the long-term aim, we would want the same sort of rules to apply across the United Kingdom, but we do not accept that we have reached that point. I have explained why we take that view, and I do not think that I need rehearse the arguments. I understand the right hon. Gentleman's serious concerns, but we have relied on the way in which the Neill committee has told us we ought to proceed.
Mr. O'Brien: I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman in a moment. First, let me quote from a letter that we received from the Neill committee, dated 15 October 1999, which relates to the Northern Ireland issue. The committee said:
- We are pleased that you have felt able to accept our recommendation in relation to an exemption from the reporting requirements in respect of donations made to political parties in Northern Ireland.
-
It then set out some of the arguments. It continued:
One matter of concern arises . . . The protection afforded by clause 63 of the draft Bill is to be made available only to those political parties which have succeeded in winning seats either in the Northern Ireland Assembly or in the Westminster Parliament . . . We are concerned for two reasons. First, your proposal implies that a political party which, for example, achieves only one seat in an election and loses it in the next will, in losing that seat, lose the clause 63 protection. We believe it to be unsatisfactory that the protection should, in these circumstances, vary in this way. Second, we believe that as regards those parties which have (so far) unsuccessfully fielded candidates at elections, their exclusion from clause 63 would place them at an unfair disadvantage.
Mr. MacKay: Before that long quotation, the Minister said that there were particular circumstances in Northern Ireland that made it fine for political parties there to accept foreign donations, whereas that was not the case here. Will he explain what those particular circumstances are?
Mr. O'Brien: I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman needs me to set out the circumstances that prevail in Northern Ireland. They are well known both to him and to me. We need to ensure that we do not treat this as a party political debating point. I accept that, up to now, the right hon. Gentleman has not done so, but it is important that we recognise that we are debating the proposals against a background of serious violence in Northern Ireland and a peace process that has developed from the Good Friday agreement. We hope that that peace process will develop further. That is a shared wish. The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that the circumstances are difficult. I have already set out with some clarity the arguments as to how we have reached the conclusions that we have, and the Neill committee has indicated that special circumstances do, indeed, apply in Northern Ireland.
Mr. MacKay: I do not believe that there are particular circumstances that affect the situation in such a way as to allow foreign donations to parties in Northern Ireland and not to parties elsewhere. What are those particular circumstances? As far as I can tell, all the Minister has said is that there is paramilitary violence in Northern Ireland. I agree, but that is not a reason for allowing foreign donations.
Mr. O'Brien: The right hon. Gentleman knows that there are arguably two reasons. There are two political parties that have close links with what my hon. Friend the Member for Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) calls the Republic of Ireland and others call southern Ireland. Certainly, there are close links across the border. Therefore, a special circumstance applies in Northern Ireland which does not apply in Scotland, England or Wales. In those circumstances, we believe that it is appropriate to take the action that we have taken.
Let me deal with amendment (a) to Lords amendment No. 132, which puts forward an alternative to exempting Northern Ireland parties from the disclosure requirements in part IV. Under the amendment, Northern Ireland parties would be required to disclose recordable donations to the
Electoral Commission in the normal way, but the information would not then be put into the political domain.That is a solution that the Government themselves have previously considered. It may be a halfway house that could be put in place in due course but we do not see it as an acceptable way forward at present. Concerns have been expressed that any external reporting of donations, even if confined to reporting to the Electoral Commission, would not provide sufficient reassurance to donors that their names would not fall into the wrong hands. That is not to suggest, as has been argued, that there is reason to doubt the discretion of the Electoral Commission. It is simply a matter of perception.
As the situation improves, we will certainly look again at the option of the disclosure of donations to the Electoral Commission and not to the wider public. However, such an option should be seen as additional to, and not a substitute for, the wider powers in clause 65.
The amendments to Lords amendment No. 133 address two further aspects of clause 65: the time limit on any order that is made under subsection (1); and the effect of the exemption in respect of the ban on foreign funding in a referendum campaign.
Amendments (b), (c), (d) and (e) relate to the time limit on any order that is made under subsection (1) of clause 65. Amendment No. 133 limits the life of such an order to four years. It is right and proper that an exemption should be subject to regular review. We believe that once every four years or so is about right.
Amendments (c) and (d) would require an annual review. That is too frequent. We hope that the political climate in Northern Ireland will continue to improve year on year, but that is not the same as saying that the political situation will have changed sufficiently one year after another to justify an annual review of a clause 65 order. I invite the House to stick to four years, albeit with the possibility of an interim review should the climate materially change, in which case the order in force could, if appropriate, be revoked.
I cannot support amendment (e), which seeks to create a sunset provision in the clause. There may come a time when we can repeal the provisions in the clause, but it is premature to be thinking of that now. Of course, if no order is in force, the clause would effectively be dormant. One would hope that it would not have to be reawakened, but we should not burn our boats now.
Amendments (f) and (g) are concerned with the impact of a clause 65 order on a referendum campaign. I think that, to some extent, I have addressed the issues with which they deal.
I shall attempt to address the issues raised by the hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Walter). The Government are entirely sympathetic to the idea that both the political parties and the Electoral Commission should have easy access to the electoral register, and, if we were starting from scratch, a national register would be one way of achieving that. Currently, however, legislation places the duty of maintaining a register of electors on local registration officers. Altering those arrangements would be a significant legislative task, and this Bill is not the place to do it.
That means that checks will have to be carried out on up-to-date registers maintained locally but, given the nature of the controls provided in the Bill, it would make sense for
there to be a central access point to all 600-plus local registers. The Electoral Commission project team is in discussion with the Improvement and Development Agency for Local Government and the Association of Electoral Administrators about the way in which online access to all local registers for the commission and the political parties can be arranged. Ensuring the compatibility of local registers is likely to assist in making those registers more accessible. However, that is no small undertaking, and, as the hon. Member for North Dorset said, the arrangements will not be in place before next October.We are trying to determine whether, as the hon. Member for North Dorset suggested, an interim solution could be in place in time for commencement of part IV of the Bill. It has not, however, proved possible to find a value-for-money solution that could be relied on to be in place for next February. Instead it has been agreed to increase from £500,000 to £700,000 the total sum available to meet parties' start-up costs, including the costs associated with making extra checks locally against the electoral register.
I fully expect, in the long-term, to return to the commission's role in the registration of electors, but it is not a matter to be resolved in the context of this Bill. I therefore urge Opposition Members to accept the Government's view that the Lords amendments are the best way of approaching the matter. I commend the Lords amendments to the House, and ask Opposition Members not to press theirs.
Lords amendments Nos. 27 to 31 agreed to.
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