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Mrs. Dunwoody: I have been paying close attention to the hon. Gentleman's fairy tale, and I am very interested in it. However, he has managed to create the whole scenario without once mentioning the element that so distorts the agricultural industry in this country, with such dramatic results. What is his view of the common agricultural policy? What role does he think it plays?

Mr. Letwin: The hon. Lady may or may not be surprised to know that my view is that we would be better

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off if the whole common agricultural policy was scrapped. I have not the slightest doubt, and neither have the farmers in West Dorset, that they would be much better off if they could, by and large, compete in an open market on fair principles and receive subsidies only to the extent that they were unable to compete in that market.

I believe that the total subsidy required to keep our agriculture going would then be minuscule compared with what we contribute to--and receive back from--the CAP. I am speaking not about the net effect on the United Kingdom economy but about the gross effect on the UK taxpayer. The CAP has brought forth unnecessary production, imposed quotas to deal with that, and then imposed huge administration costs--in short, it has distorted the market so as to maximise the subsidies required to keep that market going.

I suspect that that opinion is common ground between many Labour Members and many--in fact, almost all--Opposition Members. But none of us knows how to unmake that dreadful machine. [Interruption.] If the Minister knows how, it is surprising that he has not yet done it. I venture to prophesy that by the end of his time as Minister of Agriculture he will join the ranks of the many previous occupants of his post, all of whom failed to do it.

I would welcome it unreservedly if the whole CAP were scrapped tomorrow. I expect that there would then be far fewer subsidies. I was trying to explain why I need not oppose--indeed, why I must go on supporting--the degree of agricultural subsidy necessary to keep the industry going, on environmental grounds.

I have been trying to think about the subject a lot in the past few months, and it seems to me that the Government's problem, even with a Minister who really has good intentions towards the industry, is that, essentially, the Government's deepest thinkers are following an entirely different logic. They reckon that agriculture is the equivalent of the coal industry, and that the Labour party should see it in the same way as the Tories saw that industry. They think that it is an industry that has had its time, is kept going by subsidy and needs to be got rid of. If we got rid of it, except for the tiny fraction that is economic, we would, they think, have solved the problem.

Then, if the leftover land caused problems, it should be used productively by building houses on it.

The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Nick Brown): I am familiar with the argument that my Government's approach to agriculture is in the same mould as what the Conservatives did to the coal, shipbuilding, steel and heavy engineering industries during the 1980s. I specifically rejected that argument in my speech to the Labour party conference this year, and I got a cheer for doing so. Our approach to agriculture is to address the problems in their real terms and to help people who are going through a difficult time to get through in an economically rational way.

Mr. Letwin: I take the Minister's words entirely at face value. They are an honest reflection of his own views. However, they do not represent the Government's deepest thinking on the matter. I expect that there will come a time in the not-too-distant future when the Minister will find himself locked in combat with powerful members of the Government.

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If, as I believe, the Minister's words do not represent the Government's thinking, let me suggest the following steps. First, we need them to take action--not slowly and in the next few months, but in the next few days--to maintain two parts of the agricultural industry that are under the most severe and intense threat--the pig industry and the dairy industry. It is already three weeks since the Minister last said that he would consider such action. We need something to be done now.

Secondly, we need an absolute statement, not from the Minister but from the Deputy Prime Minister--if not the Prime Minister--that he utterly abjures the idea that has been leaked as the thinking of his own kitchen cabinet: that of trying to solve the problems of the land of this country by housing over it. Thirdly, we need a reconsideration of the status of agriculture as an industry so that it becomes clear that, quite apart from any economics, its value to society makes it worth subsidising. If those three steps were taken, the industry would survive and we would be able to relax a little in the face of what I fear is about to hit not just us and the farmers in my constituency, but the Minister himself.

4.2 pm

Mr. Martin Salter (Reading, West): I welcome the Queen's Speech and I am proud to be a Labour Member supporting a Government who are delivering for my constituents. I am pleased to welcome many of the measures contained in yesterday's speech, particularly the proposals to establish the Strategic Rail Authority and to introduce a countryside Bill extending the right to roam. However, I regret the inclusion of plans for the partial privatisation of National Air Traffic Services. Given the loose wording in the Gracious Speech, perhaps it is still possible to change the Government's mind.

The speech says that a new transport Bill

"will include measures for National Air Traffic Services to separate safety regulation from operational matters, and deliver major investment in the next generation technology."

Those are fine objectives that are worthy of our support, but they are entirely achievable without privatising one of our finest public services.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), I want to remind the House that the Paddington train disaster, which had an effect on my constituency, has changed the political landscape significantly. It has reignited concerns about the suitability of privatised safety regimes. Pressing ahead with this public-private partnership now would be insensitive and completely out of step with the public mood.

A recent poll conducted by The Guardian shows that 73 per cent. of voters are in favour of renationalising large sections of the railway, although that is not a realistic proposition. Other polls indicate that 72 per cent. of the public are against the privatisation of air traffic control. In fact, only 16 per cent. are in favour of it.

Labour Members have no problems with the separation of safety regulation from operation. We agree that air traffic control should not have to compete with schools and hospitals for scarce public resources. However, these are not the crucial issues. The nub of the argument in the

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House and in the country is the essential conflict of interest between commercial pressures and the deliveryof a public service. It is significant that Richard Branson of Virgin Atlantic and others have already indicated their desire to buy a large stake in National Air Traffic Services. That could represent a serious conflict of interests. The track record of Virgin Trains is hardly one that we would wish to replicate in the skies. Of course we recognise the need for extra investment, but there are other ways in which to achieve that without recourse to privatisation.

The report of the Select Committee on the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs offers Ministers other alternatives. The independent, publicly owned corporations in operation in Canada and New Zealand are one such model, as are the trust models. They free air traffic control from the public sector borrowing requirement and allow it to raise capital for future investment. NATS is an extremely attractive proposition for investors, with a guaranteed income stream returning an operating profit of £55 million in 1997. There have been suggestions for the future of the Post Office to give it the necessary commercial freedom. Let me say for the record that if that is good enough for the Post Office--a much-cherished and much-loved public institution--it is good enough for air traffic control.

If one looks at the argument from the other side--perhaps from a neo-Thatcherite perspective--one finds other question marks over the proposed deal. Until the computer problems at Swanwick are sorted out, one could argue that to dispose of a public asset at a rate far below its eventual sale price is irresponsible and is playing fast and loose with public assets. Perhaps this is not the time even to consider privatisation. We heard about the funding regime for Manchester airport in the exchange between my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East and Musselburgh (Dr. Strang), but what worries me and many of my hon. Friends is that this proposal is a gamble.

At times I am proud that Britain is ahead of other nations and is regarded as innovative, but this is not one of those times. No other country has been down this road and this is the last service that anyone should gamble with. When an aircraft drops out of the sky there are few, if any, survivors and we need to be absolutely sure that the course of action that will be laid before the House is the right one. I really do worry about it.

The proposal was first made by the previous Conservative Government; it was a politically inspired measure. If political meddling with air traffic control reduces safety standards, the consequences are too appalling to contemplate. It will be of little comfort to our constituents who live under the Heathrow flight path in London, Slough and Reading if we say in years to come that the Government did not listen to the warnings of Labour Back Benchers and, perhaps more importantly, the men and women who have given us the finest, safest and most efficient system in the world.

It would be arrogant for Ministers to dismiss the views of the people who provide the service. When the pilots through the British Air Line Pilots Association and the air traffic controllers tell us that they are seriously worried that commercial pressures will compromise safety, we should listen to them.

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The experience of the commercialisation of the Swiss air traffic control service is not good. Staff at the Secretary of State's office have been swamped with e-mails from Swiss air traffic controllers. They were good enough to send me copies. One says:

"I am an Air Traffic Controller working for an ATS Provider that has been privatised since January 1996.


I am concerned about the effect privatisation has had on Air Traffic Control.


In my experience:


When the company I work for was a Government Department, the overall emphasis was on safety rather than financial considerations.


With privatisation, I believe that this emphasis has shifted to cost-cutting at every available opportunity--even to the detriment of safety. Also, for a few highly placed people, it has meant significant rewards or bonuses, without coming under any form of scrutiny.


Privatisation has meant redundancies, a halt in personnel recruitment, outsourcing, numerous restructuring episodes and diminished working conditions. This has led to our current critical situation: a chronic shortage of personnel, staff morale and motivation at an all-time low and a serious lack of confidence in management as well as in our technical and administrative support.


Having witnessed the transition from a Government Department to a Privatised ATS provider, I believe that:


The end of large state monopolies means the apparition of 'super monopolies' with little or no transparency.


The monitoring of safety associated costs and investment in Air Traffic Control, MUST remain a Government responsibility.


As such, I am completely opposed to the privatisation of NATS."

That communication is signed by an air traffic controller from Geneva area control centre in Switzerland.

The NATS public service ethos puts public safety above all else, as it is immune from shareholder pressure to reduce costs. Britain currently has a service regarded as the safest, best and most efficient in the world. I want to keep it that way. As I said earlier, it would be grossly insensitive, after what happened at Paddington, to proceed with undue haste with these proposals.

Given the large transport agenda before us, I do not understand why we are seeking to divert attention from the need to improve public transport by proposing to privatise a popular public service that returns a profit to the Treasury. That profit amounted to some £40 million last year.

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