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Mr. Darling: The hon. Gentleman does wish to intervene. Will he tell me which social security benefits he intends to cut to fulfil his first pledge to the Tory party conference?
Mr. Willetts: I stand by my pledge at the conference: we are committed to reducing social security spending as a proportion of GDP. Will the Secretary of State confirm that he has offered a definition of social security spending in which, he said explicitly, he included the working families tax credit? I was grateful to him for using that
definition of expenditure--it is the one that the OECD recommends. Does he agree that that is the best measure of social security expenditure?
Mr. Darling: I was explaining how much social security spending is growing. It is growing at just over 1 per cent., compared with 4 per cent. under the Tories. The Tory complaint has always been that we do not include this, that and the other. I am simply pointing out that even taking account of the many improvements to the system that we are making, we are saving money. Interestingly, we have saved some £7 billion so far as a result of getting more people back into work, and we will save another £7 billion before the end of this Parliament. That can all be spent on families, pensioners and disabled people, which is what the majority of people in this country want.
The Welfare Reform and Pensions Act, which was introduced in the previous parliamentary Session, provides more help for those who need it most, such as disabled children. It introduced bereavement allowances, stakeholder pensions and the new ONE service that will help people back into work. Those measures, in addition to the other steps that we are taking, such as increased investment in education and health, will mean a fairer and more enterprising society that will generate the wealth necessary to meet the country's needs.
Mr. Darling:
I was about to turn to this Session's Bill, but I shall give way--if not happily--to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Bercow:
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is rather glib in his comments. What assessment has he made of the regulatory impact on businesses, in particular small businesses, of the child care credit, the working families tax credit and the disabled persons learning credit? They are matters of central significance to small businesses the length and breadth of the land, not least in my Buckingham constituency. What assessment has the right hon. Gentleman made of the damage that will be done, and what will he do about it?
Mr. Darling:
The Government publish assessments for all such measures when they publish their proposals, as the hon. Gentleman well knows. I know that he and his colleagues want to get rid of the working families tax credit, the disabled persons tax credit and just about every other bit of help that we have given to people on low wages. Most people believe that these measures--which mean that work pays for many people where it never did before because so much of their salary went in deductions--are a good thing. Our reforms are also a good thing for employers, in Buckingham and just about everywhere else. It is increasingly the case in many parts of the country that more people are needed in the labour market because the economy is expanding. In some parts of the country, because of the changes that we are making, many people now work who were unable to do so in the past.
Clearly, the time to debate the detail of the social security Bill that we intend to introduce this Session will be on Second Reading, in the not too distant future. However, I can outline our approach in general terms and deal with some of the particulars that were raised.
We propose to reform the Child Support Agency--it is part of our drive to tackle child poverty. I believe that the changes to the child support system will benefit 1 million children, once the reforms are fully in place. We are also introducing further help in child benefit, child maintenance, income support and the disregard for the working families tax credit. All such measures are geared to ensure that children have the best possible start in life and get the help they need.
We are also promoting mutual rights and responsibilities, which has been a constant theme of our welfare reform programme. Opposition Members frequently criticise us and say that we should talk about child support in terms of which parents win and which lose. To my mind, the key question is which children gain. Children should be at the heart of any strategy on child support, and my starting point is that all parents have responsibility for their children. One or two of my hon. Friends have mentioned difficulties connected with the CSA. One said that some parents thought that the procedures were so complicated that they were somehow justified in not co-operating. I do not accept that for one minute, because parents have responsibility for their children.
We are proposing further pension reform to complete the stakeholder pension reform started last year. The hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow) referred to regulations. I have made it clear again and again that the regulations necessary to implement the stakeholder pensions will be in place by April of next year, a year before the stakeholder pensions are put in place. We have consulted widely, and our proposals are well known in the industry. Although I expect Conservative Members to be critical of anything we do, the approach that we set out in the Green Paper, and which has been developed on stakeholder pensions, has by and large been widely welcomed by the pensions industry, which will be providing the pensions, as well as by all other bodies.
Mr. Leigh:
Will the right hon. Gentleman give a commitment to the Select Committee? Paragraph 106 of the report says:
Mr. Darling:
The hon. Gentleman is right on cue, because I was about to deal with the child support system and I am happy to deal with his point straight away. He is right. The computer system currently operating in the Child Support Agency was bought--not quite off the back of a lorry, but not far off that--by the Conservatives when they were in government. I understand that it came from someone in Florida who had a system that was going to be ideal--no questions asked, it would be just the thing. As we all know, it turned out not to work terribly well. To that extent, it fits quite well with some of the rest of the computer equipment that the Conservatives purchased over the years, because most of it was not up to the job when it was introduced and still is not up to the job.
When I made a statement introducing the White Paper, I gave a commitment to the House that we would not introduce the new reformed child support system until we had the information technology and computer systems to back it up and make it work. It would be possible to operate some of the new support system without new IT systems, but if we are to change the culture of the place and the quality of the service, we need a new IT system. I hope that we shall be able to make an announcement about that next year. The hon. Gentleman has raised a good point.
I should like to deal with some of the points that have been raised about the CSA. The hon. Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb) talked about the formula. The proposals for taking 15, 20 or 25 per cent. of earnings are a generalised approach. We thought about the issue long and hard. Anyone who has children knows that it is impossible to calculate down to the last penny how much it costs to bring them up. We can only approximate the amount. Our philosophy is that it is better to get money flowing from the parent without care into the hands of the parent with care as quickly as possible. We published a ready reckoner at the back of the White Paper which shows how much people will have to pay. The aim is to get the calculation made and the money flowing within days rather than the months that it currently takes.
"The importance of effective computer systems cannot be exaggerated. We recommend that the new child support scheme should not be implemented until the new computer system is fully operational."
I am sure that he agrees that we do not want any more traditional computer foul-ups. Will he give a commitment to members of the Select Committee that he will abide by that recommendation?
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