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Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall): The hon. Gentleman will not have many left.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We do not want sedentary interventions.
Sir Teddy Taylor: I assure the hon. Gentleman that there are many farms in my constituency. However, it would be sickening to do what most Liberal Democrats would do, which is to pretend to farmers that one can solve their problems by providing them with even more subsidies. That would land them in an ever greater mess. The Liberal Democrats--and, indeed, the Conservatives--who supported the European Union and the CAP as a means of solving the problems of agriculture should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. We have spent a fortune and ruined agriculture as a consequence. We have created a vast over-supply that we do not know what to do with, and public expenditure is higher than ever. The idea that providing more subsidies will solve the problem is an insult not only to taxpayers but to agriculture, which we all care about.
Mr. MacGregor: I did not want to interrupt my hon. Friend because of the limits on time. However, he will know that I am deeply critical of the CAP and fought very hard to get changes made to it. Will he also accept that I was talking about temporary aid to an industry that has costs imposed on it in the United Kingdom that all our competitors do not have?
Sir Teddy Taylor: It is wonderful to hear my right hon. Friend saying that he is critical of the CAP. That is
a fat lot of good. Having voted for all the treaties and the money, we are stuck with it. It is all very well saying that we want to reform the CAP--I hear this from farmers themselves--but it cannot be changed. People should realise that there is no way in which the CAP will be reformed; the countries of Europe will never sit in a corner and say that they would like to change it. If we pretend that we will solve the problems with subsidies, we are insulting the farmers and the taxpayer.
I was interested to hear the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon), who is clever, a senior member of his party and, unlike most of my hon. Friends and myself, very wise--one can tell just by looking at him--say that we should join the single currency earlier than proposed. I ask him honestly whether he has ever found a single currency that has worked. All of them have ended up causing mass unemployment, misery and distress. There have been 11 previous examples in the world, including two in Europe--the Scandinavian and the Latin currency unions. The tragedy is that every one collapsed. A single currency cannot work unless, as in the United States, there is one Government, one Treasury and a feeling of nationhood.
The right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne talked nonsense about the horror of the Bank of England bothering more about property prices in the south than industry in the north. If that is a problem, what the blazes will it be like in a united Europe?
I had the pleasure of seeing that nice Mr. Duisenberg--I have seen him twice now--just a few weeks ago. He was saying that the single currency was a terrible problem for him. He said, "What can I do? I have people in Ireland and Spain asking me please to calm things down, but people in Germany and Italy wanting me to boost proceedings." That simply cannot work.
The right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne talked of the need for us all to join the single currency. What has happened to the two countries that said no? I was present for the referendums; the people of Norway and Switzerland displayed a courage that we and other countries did not. Posters, paid for by the right hon. Gentleman's fat, rich friends, said that the countries must join or jobs and trade would be destroyed. Norway and Switzerland have the lowest rates of unemployment in Europe, while countries such as Germany, Italy and France are suffering economic nightmares.
When I was over in Germany seeing the Central Bank, I heard business men saying, "We have a rubbish Government." I said that I was very sorry about that, but they replied, "The Opposition are rubbish as well." They said that the parties were not being kind to business, but that once they had the single currency their problems would disappear.
I saw people who represent the French equivalent of the CBI--one of my hon. Friends on the Front Bench was there, too. They were delightful people; they drank a great deal. They told me, "We have a mad Government." I said, "I am terribly sorry; it's not my fault." They explained that their Government were introducing a 35-hour week, which will destroy jobs, but that, once there is a single currency, such action will not be allowed. I am afraid that people are kidding themselves, in a mad way, that the single currency will work.
The best guidance of all is in a wonderful speech by Mr. Duisenberg, who is such a nice, courteous man. He said:
Sir Teddy Taylor:
If the single currency is to collapse, it would not be a very good thing to join it. I am not trying to be clever. I have studied all previous single currencies, and the same things have always happened. One area does very well, one does very badly, and people march on the streets and become agitated. Let us remember that there is no democracy or mechanism by which we may express views through elections because, as we know, the "democratic" institutions in Europe are basically irrelevant. What can one do? The right hon. Gentleman may say that that is just silly, but let us consider what the markets say.
The right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne may have been present when we were told on one occasion that the euro would go like a rocket. Yesterday, it was at an all-time low against the pound, having fallen from a value of 71p to 63p, which is a substantial drop. Although that may change, let us consider long-term interest rates. What about things called 20-year bonds, by which clever people with money, unlike myself, indicate what they think will happen? Why are the 20-year British interest rates far lower than those in Germany or France? The simple reason is that people on the money markets have confidence in a British currency, but not in the European one.
I am not merely getting my views across; I am genuinely concerned about what will happen to people, jobs and prosperity in Europe. It will not be nice for us. Before the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne becomes too optimistic and too sure about the single currency, he should ask himself why such a currency has never worked and whether it is possible to harmonise the economies of Europe.
Owing, as I am sure my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench would say, to the achievements of the previous Conservative Government, or, as Labour Members would say, to the great achievements of the Labour Government, our taxes are much lower in Britain--about 36 per cent. of gross national product, in comparison with the European average of 44 per cent. How the blazes will we harmonise economies? Inevitably, some areas will prosper, some will suffer and the poor bank in the middle will not know what to do. The single currency cannot work. It has never worked before, and an awful lot of people will suffer as a consequence of it.
I had not meant to talk about such things, but they must be said. I hope that the Government will appreciate that there are two points of view. I have seen Government after Government of different parties say that they are not doing well in Europe, but that if they show good will and
take a further step, somehow things will improve. Every further step has failed to help anyone, including farmers, who are ruined despite massive expenditure.
Will the Treasury think carefully about the considerable cost of all the massive quangos that it is setting up? I am thinking of three, but will mention just one: the Financial Services Authority. It strikes me as an enormous organisation, which has massive power. It is making life impossible for people in the private sector. I have been in touch with its chairman about individual cases. The expenditure involved in continuing to send stuff in the post worries me. I am sure that other hon. Members receive it, too; I keep wondering why.
Yesterday, the great organisation sent the following fascinating information:
Such events have caused a great deal of alarm among some of my constituents. They have come to my surgeries to tell me that they have such endowment mortgages and that the news is terrible. It worries me that supposedly reputable organisations, which are sited in huge offices, employ a multitude of staff and spend a fortune, make statements that cannot be true. Either it is true that 500,000 people are in a mess, or nobody is in a mess. Issuing such statements is not sensible. I would like to think that such organisations were more sensible.
The report of the Primarolo group on the code of conduct on business taxes, which operates strongly in Europe, worries me a great deal. I serve on the Treasury Committee, which is basically a waste of time--all those who are involved in it know that to be so. We ask many questions and talk about many things, but say nothing at all. However, we are producing a detailed report on the code of conduct in Europe.
We asked the Paymaster General for a copy of the report but were told that it was terribly secret and that no one was allowed to see it. I then simply phoned a bloke in Stroud, who then rang the European Commission, and we received a copy the next day. What worries me is that that sort of thing is happening all the time.
The final report has just been issued and will be considered by the Council on 29 November. I have a copy of it in my hand, yet we are told that we cannot have it because it is secret. I feel that something very nasty is happening, because the report states clearly and precisely that although the Government accept that
More important, the Channel Islands are not represented in this place. What can we say to the people there, who had the clearest assurances in the protocol to the treaty of Rome that the islands were excluded from the European Economic Community and did not have to pay charges and taxes decided by anyone else? The Government have apparently decided to make the principles apply in the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.
"The process of monetary union goes hand in hand, must go hand in hand, with political integration and ultimately political union. EMU is, and always was meant to be, a stepping stone on the way to a united Europe."
Mr. Sheldon:
I did not like to intervene, given the shortage of time, but the hon. Gentleman has referred to me so frequently that I must do so. Can he devise a system whereby a single currency, to which all the countries of Europe are committing themselves, would collapse or be allowed to collapse? If he cannot, what are we doing out of it?
"A recent survey showed 500,000 households have endowment mortgages which would not pay for their homes."
That is a clear statement. On the same day, I received wonderful information in a very reliable magazine that is published by the insurance industry. It said:
"We have no record of any Low Cost or Full endowment failing to achieve its objectives over the short or long term. Indeed the longer the term the better the prospects. There are dozens of case studies that show multiples of two . . . why the media hysteria? What is the PIA concerned about Endowments for?"
The basic argument is that the FSA has obliged companies to present policies on a 6 per cent. yield--the yield is usually 12 or 14 per cent.
"these territories have tax autonomy, the United Kingdom has undertaken to make the code of conduct principles apply there."
There have been many recommendations for the Channel Islands, and the people there are worried. There have also been recommendations for Gibraltar and the Isle
of Man. Why on earth can we not get the information, when it is readily available to anyone who telephones the Commission and asks for it?
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