| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
6.18 pm
Sir Teddy Taylor (Rochford and Southend, East): I am sorry that my English nationalism offended the hon. Member for East Carmarthen and Dinefwr (Mr. Williams). However, to reply in all sincerity to his extremely fair speech, I hope that he will realise how much his comments will have offended those who believe in democracy.
The hon. Gentleman said that Labour is committed to a referendum on the single currency; the signs are that there may not be a full turnout; and the result will probably go the wrong way, so perhaps we should disregard it. I have heard speeches from many strange people, but I think that the hon. Gentleman is a sincere person and I hope that, on reflection, he will realise that it is appalling to state that something should be disregarded because the result might go the wrong way, especially as this is the end of the road. I hope he realises that if we were to join the single currency, there would no longer be much point in the good people of Wales voting at all, whether they were to vote for the splendid Welsh nationalists, the Labour party or even the Conservatives.
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will also reconsider his view that one can join the single currency with no effect whatever on one's tax affairs. Hon. Members should listen not only to English nationalists such as myself but to the president of the Bundesbank, Mr. Tietmeyer. The other day he said:
If the hon. Gentleman doubts that, he should ask himself whether there has ever been a successful single currency anywhere in the world. The answer is no; no such currency has ever worked. It has been tried time and again, and it simply cannot work unless--as in the case of the United States--it covers an area with one Government, one Treasury, one policy of handing out money and a feeling of nationhood.
Currency unions have been tried twice in Europe--the Scandinavian currency union and the Latin currency union. Both failed. It has been tried elsewhere.
Mr. Nigel Beard (Bexleyheath and Crayford):
The most notable example of a single currency that has worked, which seems to have escaped the hon. Gentleman's attention, is the dollar, which prevails throughout the 50 states of the United States.
Sir Teddy Taylor:
I was making that very argument. A currency union can work in an area such as the United States, where there is one Government, one Treasury, a system of aid and a feeling of nationhood. Does the hon. Member for East Carmarthen and Dinefwr realise how different things are in Europe?
Let us consider the issue of taxation and wages. I obtained some figures that I thought might be of interest to the average person. If a person on a salary of £12,000 lives in the USA, he keeps 83 per cent. of his salary. If he lives in Britain, where we have a splendid new Government, he keeps 80 per cent. If he lives in France, where they also have a splendid Labour Government, he keeps 73 per cent. If he lives in Germany, he keeps 66 per cent. That is a huge difference.
If we move to a higher level of £25,000--I believe that the hon. Member for East Carmarthen and Dinefwr may know more people like that--a person would keep
78 per cent. of his salary in America, 73 per cent. in Britain, 67 per cent. in France and only 55 per cent. in Germany. It is simply not possible to have a kind of harmony between nations with such a huge variation in taxation.
Let us take overall taxation. The hon. Gentleman will know that there is a wide variation between the 44 per cent. of GDP that goes to tax in Europe and the 36 per cent. in Britain. Although single currencies have never worked when they cover an area with different countries and different Governments, the chances of such a currency working in Europe are even smaller.
Dr. Julian Lewis:
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way to me as someone who has respected the fact that, on this issue, he has been singing the same song for much more than 20 years. Is he aware that the chief economist of the European central bank, a gentleman by the name of Dr. Otmar Issing, has said in support of his thesis that there is
Mr. Alan W. Williams:
It strikes me that the hon. Gentleman's argument is not so much about whether Britain should join the single currency, but that the single currency is destined to fall apart anyway. I accept that the euro has had a difficult first year, but what if, in three or five years' time, that single currency turns out to be a resounding success? Is he saying that Britain should still not join it?
Sir Teddy Taylor:
I would have to feel very like Jonah. The book of Jonah is one of my most popular readings in the Bible. It is a good lesson in humility for any Member of Parliament, or for anyone who thinks that he knows anything, to read about Jonah. Poor old Jonah went around telling all the people that Nineveh was going to be destroyed; and then God changed his mind, and poor old Jonah, having given up a great deal--I have given 25 years to fighting against the European Community--learned a lesson in humility. It would be terrible but a very good lesson in humility, and I would be happy for the people of Europe and the people of Britain.
I repeat in all sincerity: I have been screaming and shouting and making a nuisance of myself for a long time, with others, saying certain things; and the trouble is that, to date, we have been right. To date, an awful lot of deplorable things have happened, and an awful lot of people have suffered a great deal as a consequence.
I give the hon. Member for East Carmarthen and Dinefwr one silly example. I remember when we were about to join the exchange rate mechanism. I am not
saying that I am clever; I am saying that we must start to look at things as they are, instead of being carried away by nonsensical slogans. At ERM time, everyone thought that the ERM was great. The Government at the time, who probably were not Labour--I cannot really remember--said that the ERM would bring us growth and stability. All the top organisations of the world, including the Confederation of British Industry--which I am sure gets a Euro-grant for saying such things--said that if we joined the ERM it would bring growth and stability, and that things would be great. A few silly twits likemyself--the English nationalists--were saying, "This will inevitably bring artificial happiness or artificial misery." That was obvious. It was not that we were clever; it was obvious that that would happen.
What did happen? Five hundred thousand good people--many of whom were in Wales, I am sure--had to be put out of work because of that nonsense. We had to spend piles and piles of money supporting our currency at an illogical, nonsensical level, and ultimately it was a crisis--a disaster. We even had to have a poor old Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer making himself look silly and apparently disagreeing with the Prime Minister, which was very, very sad indeed.
Mr. Bercow:
Would my hon. Friend care to recall the sage observation of the Eritrean ambassador to the United States--whose country, after a long and bloody conflict with Ethiopia, came to mint its own coinage--that:
I am genuinely not trying to cause political disruption or to attack the Government. I simply ask them please to consider that whenever we have said things like this, we have been proved right.
I remember hearing optimistic statements, such as those made by the hon. Member for East Carmarthen and Dinefwr, when we held a referendum on our membership of the European Economic Community. I think of the farmers who are constantly on to Members of Parliament. There are many farmers in my present constituency, which is not very nice for them. I have them all coming at me. I keep reminding them that, many years ago, they were told that they would have a wonderful time if the United Kingdom joined the EEC, and that it would be great. They were all for it then--just like the fishermen in Scotland. They have indeed had a wonderful time, but inevitably such a situation creates oversupply.
There is now a massive oversupply of food, and no one knows what to do about it. It is not that Governments or organisations are being nasty. The EU spends massive amounts--larger than ever--on agriculture, as do the UK Government and others. We are simply spending lots of money on dumping and destroying food, and in the meantime the farmers are getting deeper and deeper into trouble.
What can we do? The answer is nothing. We have massive oversupply, and if we were ever to extend the European Union and bring in delightful countries such as Poland and Romania, which would love to join and take advantage of the common agricultural policy, it would simply make things worse.
I know that the farmers are delightful--they tell me so all the time--nice, decent, respectable people, but what can we say when we meet them? We can try to con them, but we are wasting our time if we do. It is the same with the fishermen. I remember that I originally came from a place called Scotland, although I am an English nationalist. During discussions on the referendum, I could not find one Scottish fishermen to support the no campaign; but when I go to Scotland now, I find that all the fishermen hate the EEC. They did have a great time, but it has caught up with us, and now the poor old fishermen are being ground into the dust and cannot find any income or prospects. It is a horrible situation. I just wish that people would face up to it.
I have heard all the arguments. We were told time and again that membership of the EEC would be great. We know that it has been a disaster for our trade, with a total deficit of more than £150 million. We have heard, too, about how the CAP would be reformed, but it is not being reformed and cannot be reformed. We have heard that Europe will be tough on fraud, but we know that Europe is hopeless at dealing with fraud, and that there is no chance of that.
I may have mentioned to one or two colleagues that the thing that really offended me was hearing about the gentleman from Liverpool, a convicted criminal, who received a grant of £140,000 from the European Union to try to improve the social situation of prostitutes in Hungary, who were very much neglected. What upsets me is that he never did anything for the prostitutes--they are still as neglected as ever--but bought two new cars and a new house. I find that type of thing appalling.
Those who believe that they can find easy answers are kidding themselves. I believe that the worst are the National Farmers Union. I even heard that the NFU approached a very respectable supermarket in Britain, whose name I cannot remember, and said, "Because we have so much meat on sale, we must get you to tear up your contracts with that wonderful country called New Zealand"--which has always helped us if we are in trouble--"and stop selling New Zealand lamb." The supermarket did what it was told, which was horrifying--one of these days I will remember its name. However, when one thinks of what New Zealand has done for us when we have been in trouble, it is shameful and shocking that that supermarket stopped selling New Zealand lamb simply because there is a glut of meat in Europe. I wish people would realise their obligations.
If we accept that those who have complained about the EU in the past and English nationalists have regrettably been proven right to a small degree, can we not at least ask the Government of whichever party--I am not sure who will be in power next year--to think carefully about the fact that for the first time Europe has gone too far and is about to suffer major problems? The first problem is the single currency. I know that Ministers are cautious and say, "We know that the euro has gone down some way, but don't worry, it will come up again." However, it will not, because international people do not and cannot have confidence it.
If the Liberal Democrats doubt what I say, they should consider the figures for 30-year bonds that I obtained yesterday. Let us take the example of someone like a Chief Whip who is rich and has access to funds. If he puts money in a 30-year bond in Britain, he will receive only 4.78 per cent. in interest from the bank, which is not very
much. In Germany, he would get 6.06 per cent. and in France he would get even more--6.14 per cent. What does that tell us? It tells us that, for 30-year bonds, international money markets say that we should avoid the euro like the plague, but that Britain is quite good even with its splendid Labour Government and the possibility of an English nationalist Conservative Government taking office after that. International money markets do not have confidence in the currency and it will continue to decline. Even though we shall receive help from our friends from Japan who have kindly said that they will try to prop up the euro--I know that they will do everything possible to help us--that will not be enough. We cannot buck the market; we are heading for a major problem.
If such a problem arises, what on earth will Europe and the British Government do? We are interested in the success of Europe and we want it to be successful. Therefore, it is desperately important that the Government and Europeans should consider what they will do if the euro continues to go wrong. If it does, that will affect not only people with money but those with jobs. The question, I am afraid, is serious.
The second problem is the expansion of the European Union. I honestly do not think that people realise the extent to which that will create a dramatic crisis if it goes ahead without a fundamental reform of the common agricultural policy, which is not possible. Those who think that they can reform the CAP are simply kidding themselves. Instead of being carried away as they probably will be with the idea of expanding the EU, they should realise that that is not possible.
"A European currency will lead to member nations transferring their sovereignty over financial and wage policies as well as in monetary affairs."
But here is the key part of his statement:
"It is an illusion to think that states can hold onto their autonomy over taxation policies."
Indeed, it is an illusion. There is no way that a single currency could work for Europe unless there was co-ordination of taxation policies and regional aid policies.
"no example in history of a lasting monetary union that was not linked to political union"?
Sir Teddy Taylor:
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I just hope that people who support the single currency in Europe will realise that. We are not trying to be difficult and to be English nationalists. We are saying that people will be in terrible trouble because when single currencies are established, we always end up with a great deal of unemployment and misery. Often there is disruption too, because, sadly, part of the area experiences strong economic growth while another part suffers deep recession, resulting in terrible trouble.
"An independent nation with its own policies needs its own currency to implement its decisions"?
Sir Teddy Taylor:
How right he was.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |