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Mr. Wells: The withholding tax would affect not only the London bond market, but Jersey, Guernsey, the Isle of Man and many Caribbean territories, including British overseas territories. They are not involved in tax evasion or other acts currently deemed illegal, but their markets would go out of business if the withholding tax were to be imposed.
Mr. Rammell: That is why I do not support the withholding tax as currently formulated. However, I sincerely believe that we have to tackle the issue of people investing income and profits overseas and not properly paying tax due within their own country. The issue cannot be tackled solely within the EU, because of the danger of flight of capital. It should be dealt with internationally, so I welcome the OECD's consideration of the issue.
We as a nation should make clear at Helsinki our fundamental commitment to Britain's membership of the European Union because membership is manifestly in our interests. More than 50 per cent. of our trade in goods and services is with other EU countries; eight of Britain's top 10 trade countries are EU countries; 3.5 million British jobs and one seventh of all UK income and production depend on sales to European countries.
Mr. Nicholls:
The hon. Gentleman is generous in giving way. Why does he believe that, were we to be outside the EU or to have a more remote relationship with it, Europe would erect some sort of trade barrier around us in revenge? Is it not fanciful to suppose that, if we were to negotiate with Europe, not stridently, and succeed in establishing a relationship with which we all feel comfortable, all trade would be cut off at a stroke?
Mr. Rammell:
I do not think it fanciful. If we were to withdraw, significant impediments and barriers to British
Mr. Bercow:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Rammell:
I shall happily give way to one of those hon. Members who hold those views.
Mr. Bercow:
I always enjoy listening to the hon. Gentleman's orations, but he strikes me as a rather slippery specimen on this issue. He says that he opposes a federal Europe, but does he agree with the President of the European Commission, who is on the record as having stated recently:
Mr. Rammell:
I do not agree with that proposition. In reply to the accusation that I am slippery, I can only say that people in glass houses should not throw stones. I take the accusation on the chin.
The degree to which our fortunes are tied to those of the EU was highlighted by the great non-appearance of the Leader of the Opposition's flat-bed truck. The House will remember that, when the Britain in Europe campaign was launched, the right hon. Gentleman said that he intended to tour Britain in a flat-bed truck, denouncing the single currency, all its evils and all its ills. He said that the details of the lorry would be available within a week, but six weeks have passed and we have heard nothing. Apparently, the reason for the delay is that the right hon. Gentleman has discovered that the only such trucks available are made by companies in receipt of foreign investment and he wants to avoid the embarrassment of travelling in such a truck.
That is all good knockabout fun--it is good to have a laugh at the expense of the Conservatives and their leader. However, the importance of that story is that it underlines certain facts. Yes, there are in this country four firms that produce trucks, all of which are derived from foreign investment. However, 2,200 British people derive their livelihood and income from those firms, and their jobs would be put at risk if we followed the Conservative policy of withdrawing from the EU.
Sir Teddy Taylor:
We are having a serious discussion and want to avoid party games. Therefore, will the hon. Gentleman tell the House what happened to the two European countries that voted in referendums not to join the EU? Were they ruined? Someone is spreading a rumour that they have great prosperity and the lowest rates of unemployment in Europe.
Mr. Rammell:
If the hon. Gentleman is seriously comparing Britain with a country such as Norway in terms of dependency on trade with EU countries, he needs to
Let me conclude--[Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] Had I taken fewer interventions, I might have finished sooner. However, let me end with the single currency, which is not on the agenda for Helsinki, but is an issue that is likely to be discussed at the summit. I support the Government's policy on the single currency, because it will be in Britain's interests to join a strong single currency. We should strive to meet the five criteria we have set and, having met them, we should put the issue to the people in a referendum.
I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for East Carmarthen and Dinefwr (Mr. Williams). Were we to pursue the policy he suggests, it would be manna from heaven for Conservative Members, who would accuse us of all sorts of duplicity. Regardless of turnout, if we cannot convince the British people in a referendum, we should not join the single currency. Therefore, I hope that we stick to our commitment to a referendum on a single currency.
Before that referendum is held, we have our work cut out to inform the British people and persuade them of the merits of Britain joining the single currency. In that context, I welcome the work done by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and his colleagues in making the case for Britain joining a strong single currency in the right circumstances. The longer we stay out of the single currency, the higher the price we pay. Last week,The Daily Telegraph--not the most Europhile of newspapers--reported major inward investors in car manufacturing in this country saying that, if Britain adopted the Conservative policy and stayed out of the single currency indefinitely, they would withdraw their investment from this country, putting millions of jobs at risk. That is the real issue that we should be addressing in this debate.
Sir Raymond Whitney (Wycombe):
I agree with the hon. Member for Harlow (Mr. Rammell) that difficult decisions will need to be taken on enlargement, the weighting of voting and on the number of Commissioners. I part company with him rather sharply on his view of the capability of Mr. Neil Kinnock and the abilities that he may bring to the difficult task of reforming the Commission, which is much needed. I know of nothing in Mr. Kinnock's career that suggests that his experience and talents are those that are required to make sense of the Commission.
Next week's European summit at Helsinki will take place at a time when we must all accept that the people's view of the European Union is that it is tarnished and tired. Those of us who want it to work must say that
something needs to be done about it. To say that a relaunch is needed is not too strong a phrase. It is important to recognise, however, that a great deal has been achieved over the 50 years of its existence. That is something that is almost never heard in these debates. We should also recognise that there is much more to do.
In no member country is there more to do to increase acceptance and understanding of the EU than in this country. We all understand the reasons for that, which are our history, geography, perhaps our temperament, and our culture. Those factors make it quite difficult for us to accept some of the things that continental Europeans accept, given all the wars that they have endured. Their experience gives them a very different perspective of the EU. However, it is difficult to believe that, nearly 27 years after our accession, as we were told yesterday, the results of a British social attitudes survey would show that 50.3 per cent. of people want to leave the EU or reduce its powers. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) cheers. I do not share his enthusiasm for that. I lament that that is the position 27 years on, but we must recognise it. Those who are on my side in the debate would want to do something about it.
Part of the reason for 50.3 per cent. of the British people taking such a view is the media. All politicians blame the media, but many of them have much to blame the media about. In my political experience, there has been an unprecedented campaign among so much of the media, a good deal of which is owned by foreigners, who seem intent on souring Britain's relations with our European partners. We all have our own examples, and there are hundreds of them every month.
I shall not detain the House too long, but I shall give two examples. The Sunday Telegraph told us that the wicked European Union was going to do away with St. John Ambulance vehicles. It stated that EU regulations would force it to buy a new fleet. When tackled about it, the executive of St. John Ambulance said that it was nothing to do with any EU directive--it was just the responsible thing to do.
I shall give one more example and then move on. The News of the World stated that there was a "totally bonkers" proposal that the EU intended to ban the sticks used by our lollipop ladies. That had nothing to do with the EU. The Government had decided to introduce a new and coherent design, one already used in Wales and based on one agreed by a United Nations-backed convention dating from 1966.
"The euro will inevitably lead to closer and closer integration of countries' economic policies . . . This demands that member states give up more sovereignty."?
Is the President right or wrong to say that?
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