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Mr. Beard: When the hon. Gentleman puts to members of the European Union the proposition that he wants to renegotiate the treaty of Rome, what would he do when they lack all interest in it and say that they will not renegotiate?
Mr. Nicholls: The hon. Gentleman tempts me, but I will not be drawn down that path. He has a jaundiced idea of our partners. From having done the job, I know that, at the moment, we go into Europe, berate them and say that they have changed the rules. [Hon. Members: "You did.] Hear me out. The Government say that they will be at the heart of Europe and achieve everything but in the end they stand alone foolishly. The Labour Government have nothing to teach us in respect of saying that they want to do it their way and getting egg on their face. The fact of it is that we have gone into Europe and told the other countries that they have changed the rules. They have never changed the rules. We are the ones who, in wilful ignorance, went in with a different perspective. We have never tried honestly to admit that to the Europeans.
Is the hon. Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Mr. Beard) seriously saying that the Europeans would not turn round and say, "You have been straight about this. We now understand where you are coming from. You admit that it cannot go on like this. We know that our relationship does not work. We know that it causes ill temper. We know that every British Prime Minister, whether Labour or Conservative, comes in wanting to be at the centre of Europe and years later is isolated because Britain has a different agenda"? I am saying that we could put all that behind us. The idea that it would serve European interests to say, "Right, the relationship does not work, but we will not negotiate one jot," is wrong. If that is what the hon. Gentleman thinks of our partners, I do not understand why he is so keen on the partnership.
Mr. Peter Viggers (Gosport):
My hon. Friend the Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) was right to concentrate on the different backgrounds and attitudes of the European countries and their different expectations of the European Union. Our relationship with Europe has never been totally harmonious, because our expectations are different.
France has been marched over three times in 130 years. That affects the attitude of the French. They want not just bridges but close bonds with Germany. The Germans are conscious of their record. They were shaken after the war, and looking for markets for their manufacturers. Spain, Portugal and Greece have seen lack of democracy in quite recent years. I remember talking to a Greek friend who said, with his hand on his heart, "I was born a Greek, but I will die a European." That is not something that many British people would say. One might even say that he was putting his hand in the wrong place, bearing in mind the amount of money that has gone into Greece.
Italy has been politically unstable. I have heard many Italian politicians say that they would welcome the harmony and sense of continuity that would come from a strengthened European presence. The Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg really are at the heart of Europe, and they have gained enormously in stability and prosperity. Austria, Finland, Ireland and Sweden are distinguished by military neutrality. All those countries look to Europe in their different ways as a safeguard of their stability, democracy and freedom, whereas the United Kingdom has a different background. We stood alone during the war. We are Atlanticists, not only because of the shared language. We are traders. Our City is predominant. Our stocks, financial markets and insurance are extremely important as part of our national economy.
Yet both Harold Macmillan and my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath) led us towards continental Europe, inspired not just by trade and business opportunities but, above all, by the desire to forge a more united Europe in which internal wars would not recur. In that, we have been triumphantly successful, and I welcome that initiative. However, we do not look to Europe as the safeguard of our democracy and freedom. Our background is different. The people of this country look to us in Westminster as the safeguards of our democracy and freedom.
There is a second strand of difference between us and our continental European allies. The United Kingdom is much closer to the United States than other European countries. That was demonstrated graphically in the bombing of Libya and Iraq. We co-operate in military intelligence. The United States is supreme in satellite intelligence, but we make our contribution to the joint international security situation. An indication of the value of American-British support was over the Falkland Islands, where we were given considerable support in intelligence and other matters.
With the United States and others, we have been partners in NATO for 50 years. Phase 1 was during the Warsaw pact. Phase 2 was when we saw the Warsaw pact
collapse and the Berlin wall go down, leading inevitably to the garnering of the peace dividend, with 30 per cent. cuts in defence. The United States is now the only military superpower because of its technological drive and because the European defence effort is focused through so many different countries and command and control procedures.
We now look towards phase 3 of our co-operation with NATO and for a new NATO role. Should that role be more interventionist? Should Europe have a military capacity to cope with European problems? It is true that Europe needs what military people describe as sinews; we need intelligence, heavy-lift capacity for aircraft, command and control mechanisms and smart weapons. Not surprisingly, the United States supports European initiatives to promote a European leg for our defence; partly because the Americans have their own, other concerns--the Korean peninsula, the middle east, Taiwan and China.
It would be wrong to think that the US is obsessed with foreign intervention. The US is one of the world's most insular countries; less than 7 per cent. of its population hold a passport--indeed, some Congressmen regard it as a badge of pride not to possess a passport. However, in general, the American people--certainly the Senate and the House of Representatives--want fairer burden sharing, so there is support for the European security and defence initiative and for the defence capabilities initiative announced in April 1999.
We need to fold into the equation the common foreign and security policy--the CFSP--which, in February 1992, established a second pillar of the EU under the Maastricht treaty. The central point of the CFSP policy is included in the words
The NATO website states:
A Foreign Office press release, dated 25 November, states:
By definition, the committee that we have created is outside the integrated military structure--exactly what the Americans most feared. Several hon. Members have quoted from the speech made at the Royal Institute of International Affairs on 7 October by Strobe Talbott, the Deputy US Secretary of State. He said clearly that
How could this be? I am convinced that the truth is that the Government's hope for a narrow agenda at Helsinki and the intergovernmental conference will be outflanked by a push for a wider agenda led by Mr. Prodi, the President of the Union. We are already sidelined by our abstention from the euro. The Government fear increasing isolation from European colleagues.
The Government have previously opposed European Union involvement in defence matters. The Government's switch appears to be an attempt to win euro credentials, but I fear that the price will be high. It will involve dilution of defence effort because of the confusion over NATO membership and EU membership. Moreover, it starts from the wrong point, even within the EU, because it starts from linking us with the French, who are not involved in the integrated military structure.
"the eventual framing of a common defence policy, which might in time lead to a common defence."
There is a problem in mingling the defence capacities of NATO and the EU. Six countries are members of NATO, but not of the EU--Iceland, Norway, Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Turkey--while four countries are members of the EU, but not of NATO; Austria, Finland, Ireland and Sweden are neutrals. Faced with that, with whom should the UK have chosen to explore such a difficult conundrum? Inexplicably, the Government chose France, whose principal characteristic in NATO matters is its reluctance to fall in line with international co-operation, especially that which it perceives to be American-led.
"France, which remains a full member of the North Atlantic Alliance and of its political structures, withdrew from the Alliance's integrated military structure in 1966. It does not participate in NATO's Defence Planning Committee, Nuclear Planning Group or Military Committee. Regular contacts with NATO's military structure take place through a French Military Mission to the Military Committee."
Those are the people with whom we have chosen to throw in our lot.
"We therefore call on the European Council in Helsinki to take a decisive step forward for the development of those military capabilities and for the setting up of the political and military instruments necessary to use them. This is necessary to give the EU the autonomous capacity to take decisions and, where the Alliance as a whole is not engaged, to launch and then to conduct EU-led military operations."
1 Dec 1999 : Column 387
On page 3, it states that
That means that the UK has joined with France--the only member of NATO not to participate in the alliance's integrated military structure--to set up and promote a military committee and a military staff. At the time of the announcement of that initiative, President Chirac made it absolutely clear that France would not change its attitude to the integrated military structure--it will remain outside that structure.
"we call on the European Union at Helsinki . . . to endorse the proposal which the UK and France have put forward on the role and composition of a Military Committee and a military staff and the planning and conduct of EU-led operations.
"the US is for ESDI."
He wants us to set up a European leg of security. He continued:
"will it help keep the Alliance together and that means the whole Alliance, European and non-European, EU and non-EU?
That is exactly what the Government are now proposing.
We would not want to see an ESDI that comes into being first within NATO but then grows out of NATO and finally grows away from NATO, since that would lead to an ESDI that initially duplicates NATO but that could eventually compete with NATO."
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