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Mr. Forth: In the interests of open government and to allow the Prime Minister the opportunity to set the record straight, will the Leader of the House provide an urgent opportunity for the Prime Minister to come to the House to explain what that nice Mr. Jospin really said to him about beef, and particularly about Scottish beef? That would also allow the Prime Minister to explain to us what he apparently did not say to the First Minister in Scotland. It might even give the First Minister, who is still the distinguished right hon. Member for Glasgow, Anniesland (Mr. Dewar), the opportunity to explain to the House what he did not hear from the Prime Minister about what the Prime Minister had heard from the Prime Minister of France.
This is a very worrying matter. It touches not only on the intimate relationship that the Prime Minister claims to have with his European counterparts, but on the whole matter of devolution and what on earth is going on between the Prime Minister and his Scottish First Minister.
Mrs. Beckett:
The right hon. Gentleman has not been reading the Daily Mail with his usual assiduous attention--otherwise, he would have seen in yesterday's edition the remarks of the president of the National Farmers Union of Scotland, who said:
Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove)
rose--
Miss Kirkbride:
Quite so. If the right hon. Lady has seen page 2 of The Sun today, she will know that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has been
Mrs. Beckett:
I was of course present, as always, at Prime Minister's Question Time yesterday. I thought that
Mr. McLoughlin:
You cannot be serious.
Mrs. Beckett:
Yes, I am serious: it was pathetic.
I have not seen page 2 of The Sun and the hon. Lady should probably be grateful that the Leader of the Opposition does not appear on page 3. However, I recall that the right hon. Gentleman recently made newspaper readers aware of his top 10 favourite jokes. He is good at jokes, and they are what he should stick to.
[Relevant documents: Fourteenth Report of the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Committee, Session 1998-99, Aviation Safety, HC 275, and the Government's response thereto, Cm. 4539; and the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions Annual Report 1999: The Government's Expenditure Plans 1999-2002, Cm. 4204.]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich):
Aviation safety is not a subject that can ever be treated lightly. Since the creation of the aviation industry, this country has had an extremely good safety record. Britain has built up a worldwide reputation for understanding the needs and priorities involved in keeping passengers and pilots safe.
The Transport Sub-Committee of the Select Committee on the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs undertook a detailed investigation of aviation safety. We did not want to disturb the industry's good reputation, nor to encourage the public to believe that there had been obvious instances of backsliding from the standards that we have always maintained. However, it would be foolish to pretend that United Kingdom Governments have always had clear and coherent policies with regard to aviation. Indeed, one of the worries is that, for some years, the House of Commons has not been treated to clear guidelines about the future of the aviation industry.
The Select Committee set out to look closely at all aspects of the working of the safety regulations, in general aviation and in the commercial sector. We were very worried that changes that might be taking place in the near future might cause details of aspects that we considered essential to be, if not ignored, then at least overlooked.
The Committee submitted a very detailed and carefully researched report. I hope that the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin),
will not misunderstand me when I say that Ifind the tone of the Government's response rather disappointing. That may reflect one of the problems raised in the report. We were concerned about what can only be described as the complacency of the aviation industry, and it is important to spell out exactly what we meant by that.
The Committee took a lot of information and evidence from all sectors of the industry. We were worried--there is no point in pretending otherwise--that the industry was not prepared to look too closely at its behaviour and its future, in case the public got the idea that a severe and real problem existed. We were careful to make it clear that it was not the Committee's aim or intention to put that idea in people's minds, as it did not accord with our experience.
However, we considered that the industry would be underestimating its own position if it gave the impression that it was content with the status quo and implied that, as everything was already perfect, there was no need for close examination of safety matters. I had hoped that Ministers would be prepared to read the report in a way that would enable them to take on board some of the difficulties that we discovered in our researches.
I want to put it on record that the Committee is satisfied that the United Kingdom is fortunate in having very professional pilots, engineers and--above all--air traffic control officers. The safety ethos is absolutely fundamental for those people, but the Committee is worried about relationships inside the industry. They may be a little too convivial. Close monitoring by Government institutions is essential and is in the best interests of the industry itself.
Some difficulties could be dealt with by the clear separation of the safety regulation group from the Civil Aviation Authority into an independent, free-standing operation, as the Select Committee recommends. At present, they operate closely and, obviously, the industry must co-operate on a day-to-day basis. Nevertheless, the Select Committee believes that it is essential that there should be a clear division between National Air Traffic Services and the CAA and that that division can be seen to be operating.
I should like to take up other points in the Government reply. Would my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary like to give me an answer to the question of virtual airlines? The Government seemed to say that, in the aviation industry, some people would wet lease aircraft and then be prepared to subcontract every aspect of the work, but that was not a real problem because there was not too much evidence that happens. Can my hon. Friend give the number of aircraft that are operated on behalf of United Kingdom airlines which are flying for hire and reward out of the UK, which are not on the UK register and which are subject to UK safety oversight or the flight operations inspectorate review? Those aircraft will carry British citizens, so we have a right to say to the Government that it is not good enough for them to say that they are not aware of anybody carrying out that particular operation, so it is not a problem. The operation of such aircraft is a virtual airline, even as defined by the Government, and it is tremendously important that we look closely at this. Air Foyle and Heavylift operate Russian-registered cargo aircraft. They are interesting examples of the sort of problem that concerns us.
Can the Minister advise us how many recommendations the air accidents investigation branch has made in the past 10 years and how many have been implemented or subject to an airworthiness notice by the CAA Airworthiness Requirement Board? How many of those relate to the outcome of the Manchester 737 accident? We ask these questions because we believe that they are relevant to the Committee's work. Can the Minister tell us whether the AAIB now has all the qualified staff and resources that it will need to meet the size of the task that it has in a developing and increasingly active industry?
The Minister will know that we raised the subject of helicopter inspection because we were concerned that it seemed that some inspectors might have several skills but not necessarily those connected with the helicopter industry. The Minister will know that helicopters are different aircraft with different needs and responsibilities. Would my hon. Friend accept an inspector with a public service vehicle licence being drafted into the railway system to operate as part of the railway inspectorate? I do not think that he would. Therefore, I should like to know that all those involved in helicopter operations inspection are qualified helicopter pilots with substantial helicopter operating experience. As my hon. Friend will know, unfortunately there have been a number of incidents which have raised considerable worries about what happens with helicopters, and the public need to be reassured.
We come now to our perennial friend, the enroute centre at Swanwick. Is the Minister really going to tell us that the centre will open during the winter of 2001-02? Will the specifications be exact? Will the centre be fully operational, and will it provide the necessary increase in capacity? The aviation industry has a greater rate of growth than almost any other in the country. It is shooting ahead, and will continue to do so. Given the pressures on air traffic controllers and air space, the functional systems will be crucial. Unless we can be sure that those systems will operate in the way that will best protect the interests of the general public, we will have some very real worries.
I want to ask about foreign aircraft inspections. Does the increase in the level of inspections include inspections of aircraft that are operated on behalf of United Kingdom airlines flying for hire and reward out of the UK which are not on our register and subject to UK safety oversight?
There are difficulties in relation to planes overflying the centre of our cities. I tabled some questions to the Minister, and expected to be told that cases of aircraft flying over central London on their way to Heathrow with one engine inoperable numbered one or two at most. I was stunned to find out that there had been 17 such cases. I hope that the Department is investigating this with some vigour and is not prepared to rest on the assumption that planes can fly safely with one engine. I am happy to know that a two-engine plane can fly with one engine, but if it is also running low on fuel, as has happened in some instances, many people in this capital city will say that that is not ideal.
There have also been instances of very large aircraft landing at Heathrow with almost empty tanks. I would like to think that those are isolated incidents but, if they are not, I hope that the Minister will be able to tell me rather more than he did in his answer to my question. It is not good enough to say to the House of Commons, "It doesn't happen very often." The one time that it does go wrong, a number of lives may be at risk, and we may
have good reason to regret that any aircraft was able to operate in such conditions over our capital city. I shall not second-guess aircraft commanders, who take the final decision on safety but there are very real worries. I hope that we shall be given information this afternoon that is more positive than hitherto.
We were concerned about the training of engineers in the aviation industry. Again, I am sorry to say that the reply was rather complacent. In the past, aircraft engineers were very specialised and were trained accordingly. Unfortunately, evidence to the Select Committee showed that we are losing a whole generation of engineers. Many of them are retiring and are not being replaced. We would like to know that the Government are confronting the situation and are not content simply to say that it is a matter for the industry. It will not be a matter for the industry if we suddenly find ourselves with operational difficulties. We should consider not only the training of aircraft engineers but how we can bring more people in to the industry and encourage them to maintain the high standards that we have had in the past.
The issue also has a knock-on effect on training people to fly. The United States, which has a very large industry, has the advantage of extremely good weather in many parts. It can encourage people from all over the globe to go there and receive aviation training; not only are the standards of training different from ours, but the cost is much lower. Since we have the expertise, I hope that we can come up with practical ways to lower costs for people who want to fly and to encourage them to remain within the UK.
I shall not go into detail on the aircraft cabin safety problems mentioned in our report. However, the Government responses continually tell us either that the Government are thinking about a particular difficulty or that, for one or another reason, they do not think a point of any importance. Cabin safety has been dismissed as capable of producing neither any new research nor any response. That seems cavalier and unimaginative. If there are problems with aircraft and air cabin safety, the Government should examine them, rather than saying that they have read what the Committee has said, but are not impressed and need not worry further.
The House of Commons entrusts Select Committees with the role of scrutinising industries sponsored by Whitehall Departments because the detailed examination of problems likely to arise is something that Select Committees do best. We are able to question Ministers, to raise detailed problems with those who give evidence and to call a wide cross-section of people before us, as we did when we compiled the report. On general aviation, commercial flying and helicopters, we considered all the difficulties that we foresaw, and we have attempted to produce a report that is not sensational, that does not seek a hysterical response but that demands serious answers.
We were disappointed with the quality of the Government's response. We felt that our work merited rather less complacency and rather more vigour. For the first time in many years, a Government have said that they will have a policy on aviation and produce a detailed document. They say that they will treat the industry with seriousness that it has not been given in the past. That is both essential and welcome, but there are matters for the Minister to consider in the interim.
"At no stage . . . were there any serious and detailed proposals put forward by France to allow Scottish beef to return to the French market."
He added, as reported in The Independent:
"This can only be a blatant attempt by the French to shift attention away from their unwarranted and illegal action and to attempt to drive a wedge between different parts of the United Kingdom."
I rest my case.
That a sum, not exceeding £511,039,000, be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund, on account, for or towards defraying the charge for the year ending on 31st March 2001 for expenditure by the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions on support to nationalised industries; grants to Railtrack, British Rail, London Transport, Docklands Light Railway, DoA Ltd; MRPS grant; payments in respect of expenditure relating to the Channel Tunnel Rail Link; expenditure connected with the privatisation of British Rail Business; other consultancies; expenditure relating to Commission for Integrated Transport; capital expenditure by transport industries funded by EC grants; railway industry and National Freight Company pensions funds; National Freight Company travel concessions; rebate of fuel duty to bus operators; ports and shipping services; Royal Travel; miscellaneous services; civil aviation services; international aviation services; transport security; freight grants, and expenditure associated with the non rail privatisation programme.--[Mr. McNulty.]
1.55 pm
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