Examination of witnesses (Questions 200
- 219)
MONDAY 14 FEBRUARY 2000
DR PAUL
LEINSTER, MR
NIGEL READER
and DR MARK
KIBBLEWHITE
Mr Marsden
200. Can I ask a general question first of all?
What are the IPPC targets with regard to agriculture?
(Dr Kibblewhite) There are two types of production—pig
and poultry—and there is a general requirement to consider
the possible environmental impacts of those processes or those
production units and to control those so that they do not cause
significant damage or risk of harm to the environment. So there
are no absolute numbers.
201. Therefore, from what you are saying, there
are no targets?
(Dr Kibblewhite) No, no absolute numbers.
202. So what are the success factors for its
implementation?
(Dr Leinster) The controls are based around the implementation
of best available techniques, so it is through those best available
techniques which will be, in England and Wales, informed by the
European-wide BAT documents; those will be the standards which
have to be implemented through the use of guidance documents in
England and Wales. It is a process-led and process-controlled
system.
203. So the only success factors are complying
with the standards?
(Dr Kibblewhite) No.
204. What are they, then?
(Dr Kibblewhite) For example, if we look at ammonia
emissions, then we do have data today on the level of ammonia
emissions from units of these types. We can estimate what ammonia
reduction could result from the introduction of best available
techniques. We will also hopefully in the future be able to continue
to monitor these, so that we can see whether there actually has
been a reduction in ammonia releases, and then also through environmental
scientific research assess what benefits that has brought to the
environment. Those are the final success factors to improving
the environment.
205. So you are going to do that and you are
going to publish it and do it for each pollutant, is that right?
(Dr Kibblewhite) No, I think that we will be able
to show that the application of best available techniques will
have reduced ammonia. There is a great deal of scientific work
going on on nitrogen deposition in the United Kingdom and, indeed,
regionally. The results of this IPPC initiative will be factored
into that and assessed within that framework.
206. Forgive me cutting through this red tape
and this bureaucracy, as I see it, but give me a yes or no answer.
You are going to have success factors. Are you going to publish
them from your own Environment Agency in order to demonstrate
the success of the IPPC, yes or no?
(Dr Leinster) Yes.
207. Very well. Let me move on to interim arrangements.
The IPPC regulations will not apply to current installations until
2003 for poultry and 2004 for pigs. My question is, why are these
sectors coming under this scheme at different times?
(Dr Leinster) It is to do with phasing of workload.
208. So why poultry before pigs?
(Dr Kibblewhite) I do not think there is a science
to this. There are no types of processes coming forward from IPPC.
Those are already covered, of course, under some regulations,
so arguably perhaps some of those would come towards the end of
the sequence, if what we are trying to do is take account of environmental
risk; but that is where it has been decided that we—"we",
the Agency—will operate in the timetable of it.
209. You say that "it has been decided".
Who has decided it?
(Dr Leinster) The decision on the phasing in of sectors
is for the DETR, not for the Agency.
210. You are saying Ministers have decided this.
It is not a difficult question. Who has decided, that is all I
am asking?
(Dr Leinster) The phasing in of sectors is decided
by the DETR, so eventually by the Minister for the Environment.
211. Right, thank you. The question has been
partly answered previously about the introduction of this scheme
and the phasing, I appreciate that, but how do you think you are
coping with the introduction of this directive?
(Dr Leinster) As I say, we realised that this was
a considerable workload. There were new requirements. So, for
example, within IPPC we now will have things like waste minimisation,
restoration of sites, assessment of incidents and accidents, energy
conservation, raw material usage, they are all new requirements
within a regulatory framework. IPC does not cover those; IPPC
does. In addition, there are these new areas which will be coming
under regulation, so pig and poultry, food and drink will also
be being regulated under an integrated regime for the first time.
We realised that and established over two years ago now a project
which will co-ordinate within the Agency the work on this. They
have been carrying out a considerable amount of work. We have
worked on application forms, the guidance documents, and how it
is going to impact within the Agency. I think we are well advanced
in our preparations.
Mr Jack
212. How much is it going to cost your Agency
to go from this interim to the actual up and running situation?
How much have you put in your budget for this expenditure, because
you are not recovering anything from anybody at the moment? How
much is it costing?
(Mr Reader) We have some grant in aid from the DETR
to help with the setting up arrangement, so it is paying for the
cost of the project.
213. I actually asked how much.
(Mr Reader) We have £600,000 per annum from the
DETR to help with the process.
214. When did the clock start running on that
£600,000?
(Mr Reader) Last year.
215. Last year. And it covers what period then,
right the way through to 2007?
(Mr Reader) We have a small allocation from the DETR
for next year but essentially that £600,000 comes to an end
at the end of this financial year.
216. So after that, unless you recover some
costs from somebody, your budget is in deficit?
(Mr Reader) Yes, effectively.
217. How many extra people have you taken on
to do all this mountain of work?
(Dr Leinster) New people just now?
218. Yes, or are you all working much harder?
(Dr Leinster) We are all working much harder.
219. So there have been no extra people despite
the fact you are going to spend £600,000?
(Dr Leinster) What we have done in the project is
funded from that £600,000, so it is in fact over the last
two years. It kicked in in April of 1998. That has funded the
project. The project team is around ten people, so those ten people
are the additional resource that we have made available for implementing
IPPC.
Mr Mitchell: Let us go back to Paul Marsden.
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